[Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

Stephen Slevinski slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET
Fri Apr 16 16:50:48 UTC 2021 

Hi Jonathan,

SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry 
process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images.
http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en



This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2"
Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5.
Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2

This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text.
Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds 
formatting.

If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with 
understandable plain-text.

I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol 
size.

-Steve




On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:
>
> Hi Adam,
>
>     Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes 
> with the existing fonts.
>
> If you go to
>
> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en
>
> And click on QuickSignEditor,
>
> You can change the size of the symbols.  It uses the styling portion 
> of the FSW that Steve and I created together.
>
> Use minus in the circle button.
>
> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size 
> or not.
>
> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version 
> of SignMaker I have it hosted in.
>
> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a 
> few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it 
> and save it in SignPuddle.
>
> Steve,  what is your take on this subject?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote:
>> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions.
>>
>> Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only 
>> farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t 
>> see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your 
>> suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more 
>> sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the 
>> chest?
>>
>> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing 
>> depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it 
>> written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. 
>> Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following:
>>
>>
>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using 
>> the side view would be easier for the palm facings.
>>
>>
>> However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday 
>> writing in such rare cases.
>>
>> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one 
>> sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having 
>> to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together.
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly 
>> show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of 
>> having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure 
>> if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be 
>> handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This 
>> doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…)
>>
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren 
>>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 
>>> <mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my 
>>> chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  
>>> Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault 
>>> <atg at videotron.ca <mailto:atg at videotron.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Adaame and Val,
>>>
>>> I write this:
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> André
>>> De : Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>>
>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" 
>>> <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 
>>> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700
>>> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 
>>> <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space
>>>
>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, 
>>> but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. 
>>> Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)
>>>
>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two 
>>> baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.
>>>
>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png>
>>>
>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel 
>>> that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, 
>>> but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the 
>>> body as it is written.
>>>
>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in 
>>> specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. 
>>> That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is 
>>> common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that 
>>> is where the depth comes into play.
>>>
>>> <namesign.png>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton 
>>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 
>>>> <mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> April 15, 2021
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this 
>>>> message, Adam ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in 
>>>> sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?
>>>>
>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe 
>>>> you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by 
>>>> “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL?
>>>>
>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons 
>>>> and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of 
>>>> center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in 
>>>> sign languages.
>>>>
>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is 
>>>> “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - 
>>>> but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with 
>>>> Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with 
>>>> hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s.
>>>>
>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of 
>>>> SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink 
>>>> pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use 
>>>> everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the 
>>>> symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means 
>>>> closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further 
>>>> away is always smaller.
>>>>
>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and 
>>>> post it later.
>>>>
>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was 
>>>> not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, 
>>>> it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount 
>>>> of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being 
>>>> larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for 
>>>> everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!
>>>>
>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and 
>>>> some standardized spellings have helped.
>>>>
>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you 
>>>> have written - many thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>> ----------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM 
>>>>> <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue 
>>>>> that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be 
>>>>> done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the 
>>>>> numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one 
>>>>> team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the 
>>>>> right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. 
>>>>> This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” 
>>>>> vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from 
>>>>> me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to 
>>>>> write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do 
>>>>> normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had 
>>>>> a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body 
>>>>> rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its 
>>>>> own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if 
>>>>> there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and 
>>>>> didn’t have to be assumed. Is there?
>>>>>
>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>>>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>>>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
>>>> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
>>>> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
>>> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
>>> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
>>> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
>>> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
>>> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
>>> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1><Screen 
>>> Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png><namesign.png>
>>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
>> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
>> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages 
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 
> <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>


________________________________________________


SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: baglbilanghogejj.png
Type: image/png
Size: 5093 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gjpoiddbedboknkh.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1375 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png
Type: image/png
Size: 54904 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0002.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: babilhopiflhdnaa.png
Type: image/png
Size: 9368 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png
Type: image/png
Size: 10281 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png
Type: image/png
Size: 11101 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0005.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png
Type: image/png
Size: 6692 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0006.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: namesign.png
Type: image/png
Size: 440 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20210416/10a371f8/attachment-0007.png>

More information about the Sw-l mailing list