[Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space

Adam Frost icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM
Wed Apr 21 04:06:02 UTC 2021 

I tried to write the “I have 5 and you have 4” phrase using the top view. I am not sure about the palm facing so I wrote it twice, but neither seem to be right for some reason. It could just be that I am not used to writing from the top view. ;-)




Adam

> On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:51 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> 
> SignWriting List
> April 16, 2021
> 
> Hi Adam -
> Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, “you give to me” and “I give to you” do have a “feeling of depth” in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table’s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table’s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth… the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best.
> 
> Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-)
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> --------
> 
> 
>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning.
>> 
>> So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written?
>> 
>> <namesign.png>
>> Adam
>> 
>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> SignWriting List
>>> April 16, 2021
>>> 
>>> Hello Andre and Adam -
>>> 
>>> Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting.
>>> 
>>> Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well.
>>> 
>>> And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes…
>>> 
>>> I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all!
>>> 
>>> Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam -
>>> 
>>> Nice to have the List active again -
>>> 
>>> Val ;-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA <mailto:atg at VIDEOTRON.CA>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Adaame and Val,
>>>> 
>>>> I write this:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> André
>>>> De : Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>>
>>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700
>>>> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space
>>>> 
>>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.
>>>> 
>>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png>
>>>> 
>>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written.
>>>> 
>>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play.
>>>> 
>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>> Adam
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>> April 15, 2021
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?
>>>>> 
>>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL?
>>>>> 
>>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!
>>>>> 
>>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----------
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ____________
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
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>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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