[Sw-l] [SPAM] Placement of Signs in Space

Thu Apr 22 22:59:03 UTC 2021

SignWriting List
April 22, 2021

Thanks for your emails Cherie - it is really great to hear from you.

I think I see your point, which I too have thought about. Maybe the Movement Arrows moving the 5 Hand into the 4 Hand could not be used to show depth, if both hands are “placed in space”, almost like a classifier, without the movement in-between - that kind of situation, where a movment between the two hands cannot be used, does really feel like it needs two sizes… like “setting up” two people in space - one far away and one closer - that would not use Movement Arrows - then maybe the Top View is necessary and placing the two people in space is one sign where both hands arrive at their destination at the same time - one far from the Tope View Head and one close to the body - 

So Adam is this where you would use the two lines?

I am going to search for an old document I have on writing classifiers that were a little like this - but we were using sizes -

Thanks again - and have a great evening -

Val ;-)

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> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:41 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to thing of a time I've used just one without the other.  If I am talking about one teams score without the other, then I would just place it midway in neutral space.  The only time I do the close/far is when I have two things to talk about.  What makes the close/far situation is that we are combining the numbers with other information.  "I support this team, you support that one, MY team scored 4, your team scored 5."  In English those would be separate utterances, but they can be combined visually in ASL.  The same way we set up people in space and then refer to that space instead of saying their name every time, like we have to do in English.  The use of space is an additional layer of meaning for this...  Does that make sense?  An example of layering that I use sometimes is translating the English, "There is a man over there!!"  Look at all them words!  In ASL it could be MAN signed with one hand and point with the other with a frightened/panicked look on the face. Not sure how I would write that...
> 
> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 04:29:37 PM EDT, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> It happens to the best of us. ;-)
> 
> So I have a question for you. How would you write the same sentence without the ending with 5? There wouldn’t be any movement going outward to end with the 5. It would end with the 4 close to the chest.
> 
> Conversely, how would you write the sentence if only the other teams score was given, with the 5 farther away?
> 
> <namesign.png>
> Adam
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>> 
>> ooops, should have read all my emails before I replied.... :smile:
>> 
>> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 01:14:26 PM EDT, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> SignWrting List
>> April 22, 2021
>> 
>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone -
>> 
>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this...
>> 
>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-)
>> 
>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers.
>> 
>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram:
>> 
>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg>
>> 
>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well.
>> 
>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”.
>> 
>> <part1.708400B8.png>
>> 
>> 
>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video:
>> 
>> <Amit Moryossef.png>
>> 
>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ <https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ>
>> 
>> 
>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. 
>> 
>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 <https://signbank.org/signmaker.html>  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor <https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/> programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues.
>> 
>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.
>> 
>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations.
>> 
>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too!
>> 
>> Have a great day everyone -
>> 
>> Val ;-)
>> 
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>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
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> 
> 
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> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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