[Sw-l] SW-L Digest - 25 Oct 2021 to 26 Oct 2021 - Special issue (#2021-136)

Fri Oct 29 21:02:42 UTC 2021

SignWriting List
October 29, 2021

Hi Tim and everyone -
Your answer below on how to update SooSL with new handshapes is really interesting. We do not have any photos of those new handshapes for you to access. Nor do we have the SVG of these new handshapes for download ;-)

In SignPuddle 2, when we use two different symbols in the ISWA 2010 to construct a handshape, it is a problem for searching and sorting. That is why some kind of software solution needs to be programmed. And we are not there yet.

There are a number of issues related to this problem. SignPuddle 2, which is a standard program that some here on the List use, is at the moment, in need of updating, which Steve is working on when he can, on the weekends. But any software developed to add handshapes to searching and sorting, developed by others, will most likely need to coordinate with SignPuddle 2’s searching and sorting features, so it will be a collaboration based on the current software in use.

It seems that SooSL is gaining in use? This is very exciting, Tim, and keep us informed how you handle adding new handshapes. It helps all of us.

Where can List members get the SooSL program?

Val ;-)

---------

> On Oct 29, 2021, at 10:08 AM, Timothy Grove <tim_grove at SIL.ORG> wrote:
> 
> On 10/26/2021 11:10 PM, K Cumberbatch wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. I'll find out if what Adam and Sutthikuhn suggested can be used in SooSL.
>> 
>> Yes, I think an add-on is a great approach for new handshapes. Tim, is it possible for a SignWriting add-on to work with SooSL or for me to add these handshapes myself?
> If the handshape you want could be composed from multiple handshapes already in the ISWA 2010, then you "could" index your sign with all of these. 
> That doesn't feel "quite" right as it would suggest that your sign actually uses multiple handshapes, but anyone searching using any or all of the individual handshapes would find your sign. 
> Does that make any sense?
> 
> I'm not sure how an add-on approach would work in SooSL, but if you looked inside a SooSL installation, you might see how we use the handshapes.
> Inside the program folder there is a sub-folder called "components", and "handshape" is a sub-folder under this. 
> The sub-folders under the handshape folder represent the SymbolGroups of the ISWA 2010 (https://www.signbank.org/iswa/cat_1.html).
> The sub-folders under these contain the files associated with each symbol.
> 
> 
> 
> The files are from resources that I downloaded from here: https://www.movementwriting.org/symbolbank/index.html#ISWA2010
> The file with '_folder' in its name is only included where that symbol represents the SymbolGroup.
> The files with 'a', 'b', and 'c' were extracted from the animated gifs for the symbol, which I use for those larger images you see when you click on the light bulb icon in SooSL.
> 
> 
> (I've now combined these into one single file, instead of three for the next version.)
> (There is also a description, in this case "Index Ring Finger", which is stored elsewhere in the source code.)
> 
> So, the short answer to your question, Keren, is "Yes, you could add new handshapes to SooSL!" 
> You would need to create files for it as above; name them with an appropriate symbol code; create a folder for them under an appropriate SymbolGroup folder and drop them in!
> 
> A couple of caveats:
>  1) If you wanted to share your dictionary with someone else using another copy of SooSL, you would also need to share the new set of components with them.
>  2) New versions of SooSL would overwrite the altered component folder.
> 
> Maybe if this is an idea that we take forward in development, I could find a way to keep new handshapes which are not part of SooSL's core with the dictionary itself? A thought...
> 
> I hope that this is some help to you, Keren. I'm sure we will discuss this more!
> 
> For the SignWriting folks who may be reading this, I use the names of the symbols, such as "Index Ring Finger", as toolTips in SooSL. Is there anywhere a list of these names translated into other language?
> I've been meaning to ask that question for a long time; thank you!
> 
> Best regards,
> Tim
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Adam, the research is detailed and none of the existing handshapes are close enough. I've used 'close enough' in other instances.
>> 
>> Yes, the second handshape is the R hand on a hinge. I have it in my data with both the thumb extended at the side and on the ring and baby fingers. 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Keren.
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 4:08 PM SW-L automatic digest system <LISTSERV at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote:
>> There are 4 messages totaling 17206 lines in this issue.
>> 
>> Topics in this special issue:
>> 
>>   1. Additional Handshapes (4)
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:12:24 -0700
>> From:    Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>> Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes
>> 
>> SignWriting List
>> October 26, 2021
>> 
>> Hello SW List members -
>> I received this message today (see below).
>> 
>> Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest handshapes we already have, that could be used to create signs with these handshapes? If we can find ones that are already in the ISWA 2010 that are close, then maybe we can teach how to construct what is needed? I appreciate your help everyone -
>> 
>> Val ;-)
>> 
>> -------------
>> 
>> > On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Ms Sutton,
>> 
>> I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed there are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting and I can contact SignWriting directly about adding handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2 handshapes in the attached pictures so that they can be included in SooSL. The second one which may be difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Keren Cumberbatch.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ——————
>> 
>> > On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Hello Valerie,
>> > 
>> > Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Regards,
>> > Keren.
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 2021 00:49:42 +0700
>> From:    Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai <suttikunep at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes
>> 
>> Hi Valerie and SWList members,
>> 
>> I suppose that the signs for the two handshapes you've mentioned could be
>> written as follows:
>> 
>> [image: sign (2).png]
>> 
>> [image: sign (14).png]
>> Sutthikhun
>> 
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 00:13, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > SignWriting List
>> > October 26, 2021
>> >
>> > Hello SW List members -
>> > I received this message today (see below).
>> >
>> > Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest handshapes we
>> > already have, that could be used to create signs with these handshapes? If
>> > we can find ones that are already in the ISWA 2010 that are close, then
>> > maybe we can teach how to construct what is needed? I appreciate your help
>> > everyone -
>> >
>> > Val ;-)
>> >
>> > -------------
>> >
>> > On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Ms Sutton,
>> >
>> > I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed there are
>> > some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim Grove. He said that
>> > the handshapes are from SignWriting and I can contact SignWriting directly
>> > about adding handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be
>> > added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2 handshapes in
>> > the attached pictures so that they can be included in SooSL. The second one
>> > which may be difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb
>> > side.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Keren Cumberbatch.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ——————
>> >
>> > On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Valerie,
>> >
>> > Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Keren.
>> >
>> > ________________________________________________
>> >
>> > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> >
>> > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>> >
>> > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> >
>> > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> >
>> > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> >
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 2021 10:59:33 -0700
>> From:    Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes
>> 
>> The first one is actually what I was thinking. This is a construction of two symbols, correct? BaseSymbol 1 & BaseSymbol 258?
>> 
>>  + 
>> 
>> The second one actually has the index and middle fingers crossing in addition to what your handshape has. I found that this handshape is the closest, but the thumb is not extended to the side.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you wanted to have the thumb to the side, the handshape would have to be constructed completely. I am not sure what would constitute as close enough for this person’s purposes because it seems they are doing some detailed research. At least that is my guess.
>> 
>> 
>> Adam
>> 
>> > On Oct 26, 2021, at 10:49 AM, Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai <suttikunep at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Hi Valerie and SWList members,
>> > 
>> > I suppose that the signs for the two handshapes you've mentioned could be written as follows: 
>> > 
>> > <sign (2).png>
>> > 
>> > <sign (14).png>
>> > Sutthikhun
>> > 
>> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 00:13, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>> wrote:
>> > SignWriting List
>> > October 26, 2021
>> > 
>> > Hello SW List members -
>> > I received this message today (see below).
>> > 
>> > Anyone who can help…. can you help us find the closest handshapes we already have, that could be used to create signs with these handshapes? If we can find ones that are already in the ISWA 2010 that are close, then maybe we can teach how to construct what is needed? I appreciate your help everyone -
>> > 
>> > Val ;-)
>> > 
>> > -------------
>> > 
>> >> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com <mailto:mehrarbeite at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Dear Ms Sutton,
>> > 
>> > I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed there are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting and I can contact SignWriting directly about adding handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2 handshapes in the attached pictures so that they can be included in SooSL. The second one which may be difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Regards,
>> > Keren Cumberbatch.
>> > 
>> > <Screenshot 2021-04-10 at 12.29.59 AM.png><Screenshot 2021-10-25 at 8.43.42 PM.png>
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ——————
>> > 
>> >> On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:58 AM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com <mailto:mehrarbeite at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Hello Valerie,
>> >> 
>> >> Yes, reposting it on the list is fine.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Keren.
>> > ________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> > 
>> > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>> > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>> > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> > 
>> > Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>> > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>> > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:07:42 -0700
>> From:    Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>> Subject: Re: Additional Handshapes
>> 
>> SignWriting List
>> October 28, 2021
>> 
>> First, I want to welcome a new member to our List, Keren Cumberbatch. Thank you, Keren, for the questions about constructing handshapes.
>> 
>> Second, many thanks to Adam and Sutthikhun (Ae), for your help. I do so appreciate it.
>> 
>> Before you joined, Keren, Adam and Sutthikhun (Ae) had already been discussing your handshapes in question:
>> 
>>       .
>> 
>> I believe we all agree on the first one:
>> 
>> It is the thumb inside a fist, with the index finger extended. It would be two handshapes combined:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> and of course there are different palm facings. This handshape needs to be constructed because it is not a part of the official ISWA 2010 symbolset. But all the pieces are there for you. Do you know how to access and find those shapes in SignPuddle Online? I do not know how SooSL works with handshapes.
>> 
>> The second handshape is hard to see in the photo, but Adam and Sutthikhun made different suggestions - You can find their earlier messages in the SW List Archives for today:
>> 
>> Archive 4
>> https://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>> 
>> From your description, “ The second one which may be difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side”, and looking at the suggestions, it looks like to me that it is an R hand (crossed fingers) angled forward, like the Letter N in ASL, but the thumb goes to the side, like this:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As you can see, this is also a constructed handshape and even if you want to write it differently than I have posted above, we do not have it in the ISWA 2010 either - so both handshapes have to be constructed.
>> 
>> So what to do about needing more handshapes in the ISWA? It would be so much chaos for the software developers who have already built their software on the current symbolset to change the current symbolset now - the best thing we could try, is for brave software developers to develop an “add-on” program that could somehow be accessed on the side, while still keeping the current software in tact.
>> 
>> How do other people feel about this? Rubens Almeida and others have also requested more handshapes. Is there anyone who can help this issue?
>> 
>> Val ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> -----------------
>> 
>> > On Oct 25, 2021, at 6:46 PM, K Cumberbatch <mehrarbeite at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Dear Ms Sutton,
>> > 
>> > I am using SooSL for my research project and I noticed there are some handshapes that are not included. I contacted Tim Grove. He said that the handshapes are from SignWriting and I can contact SignWriting directly about adding handshapes. I would like to know if new handshapes will be added in the near future and if it is possible to add the 2 handshapes in the attached pictures so that they can be included in SooSL. The second one which may be difficult to identify is an index middle cross hinge, thumb side.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Regards,
>> > Keren Cumberbatch.
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> End of SW-L Digest - 25 Oct 2021 to 26 Oct 2021 - Special issue (#2021-136)
>> ***************************************************************************
> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
> 
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> 

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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