[Sw-l] Between floor and wall arm rotation

Sun Feb 6 16:29:23 UTC 2022

Wow, Andre. What an interesting writing! Yes there are straight diagonal arrows that would show going down forward just as you have written. That is another opportunity. Thanks for sharing!

> On Feb 6, 2022, at 8:13 AM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA> wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Adam wrote: Uta and I were talking about how to a sign that has an arm rotation where the arm isn’t parallel to the floor nor the wall. It is at a 45º angle projected forward (and upward). I had suggested just using a general arm movement arrow rather than arm rotation, but Uta and her group are in need of that specific arm rotation.
> 
> I try to write down below the arm rotation (a 45º angle).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Abdré
> De : Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>
> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Date : Sun, 06 Feb 2022 06:04:20 -0800
> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Objet : Re: Between floor and wall arm rotation
> 
> I agree, Carlos, that writing such details is cumbersome for everyday writing. However, after talking with Uta I realize that she and her team aren’t necessarily focused on writing the language, but they are focusing on encoding and making it easily searchable for people who don’t know SignWriting – linguists and native signers alike. Their dictionary entries are accompanied with videos. So for them, the details are more important than the ease in readability.
> 
> I have done some digging into some of the traveling arm rotation symbols that are currently present. This is just an attempt to show how to use these symbols that are both arm traveling and arm rotation movements. I have not decided if this is the correct one for this video, but it might work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Feb 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Carlos Cristian Libras <carloscristianlibras at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello List,
>> The moment I watched the video I understood that sign language readers can easily see the written form and complete the sign. Like a spelling agreement. As much as it is not 100% represented in writing. As many signs in Brazil are made like this (we write in a way that Brazilian readers can read easily but that a foreigner may have another interpretation of the movement).
>> 
>> After thinking about it, I reflected that if I were to describe the movement exactly I would separate the signal in 2 beats, writing the beginning of the movement and the end. But before I answered that, I saw the rest of the discussion and realized that Valerie Sutton had already shown exactly the format I thought:
>> 
>> <image.png>
>> 
>> I don't know of any current symbols that would simplify this. But I'm looking forward to seeing Adam's response. Anyway, I believe that the two solutions above already solve the problem, I see no reason to worry.
>> I advise you to write long texts that use this sign, to see how it will actually be in practice. Because it is very different to write a sign for a dictionary, putting all the details than writing a personal note text in which many details are obsolete, because what matters most is the practicality and usefulness of writing.
>> 
>> This is just an opinion.
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 3:27 AM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think the discussion came about because there is a desire to have a movement symbol that has arm rotation and arm traveling. Now that I think of it, there are some symbols that do just that. I’ll have to take a look into that tomorrow morning. :-)
>>> 
>>> <namesign.png>
>>> Adam
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:42 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> SignWriting list
>>>> February 5, 2022
>>>> 
>>>> And to answer your question, when we really are writing rotation symbols (movements that do not travel but just change palm facing), we do not have a diagonal plane version of the rotation symbols. There are only two planes to choose from for Rotation Symbols. The forearm is either parallel to the floor or parallel to the Wall - I have never seen yet a sign that is misunderstood because a diagonal forearm would change the meaning of the sign.
>>>> 
>>>> In this case this sign means “homogeneous" in English (in German “homogen”) and homogeneous in English means like a family or group that blends well together. The movements look a little like the sign for FAMILY in ASL, and although I know the meanings may be different, I think the curved traveling movement fits with the meaning of the sign, at least that is the way it feels to me.
>>>> 
>>>> There are always questions with Rotation Symbols and how to write them so feel free to keep asking questions - 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks so much for sharing.
>>>> 
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> --------------
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:27 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>> February 5, 2022
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello SignWriting List, Uta and Adam,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regarding this video:
>>>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/homogen/5750242766511595:730
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree with you, Adam, that this is a general arm movement because the arm movement TRAVELS. The hands travel from shoulder level to “in front of the chest and lower” in the second position. I would write it this way:
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>> 
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>>>> <DGS_homogen1.png>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Movements that travel are curves that truly move the hands from one space to another.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rotation symbols are movements that do NOT travel. The arm stays in one place while the arm twists from one palm facing to another, while staying in place.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So if I were reading the SignWriting with the rotation symbol in this diagram, without seeing the video, I would think that the plam facing changes at shoulder level. I would not know that it traveled down lower, since it is a Rotation Symbol (which means no traveling).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sometimes small rotation symbols are placed on top of traveling arrows - they are combined, because the writer doesn’t want to write the second position but I prefer to write the second position - at least for those who do not know the sign.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>> 
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
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>>>> <Image.png>
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>> 
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
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>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
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>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
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> 
> ________________________________________________
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> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
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> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
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