# [Sw-l] Question about wrist side-flex

Ms. AnnaGrace msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Nov 14 11:05:28 UTC 2022

```Hi All,

Here's an update about wrist flexing --

I recently noticed symbols specifically for wrist movements on pages 154 to
155 in the textbook. (How did I overlook this before?!)

They look helpful. They are good for full wrist circles. I wonder if there
is a way for them to represent 1/8th of a circle, 1/4th of a circle, etc.

I have been collecting videos showing ASL signs using the wrist side-flex.
As soon as I am done with my other projects, I will share them with you all!

Thanks and cordially yours,

AnnaGrace

On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think what we are seeing here is best explained by “proximalization”,
> which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign language to
> produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints to distal
> joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the shoulder
> towards the fingertips.
>
> Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to your
> hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your hand.
> This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to achieve
> the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your arm is
> parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to bend
> in order to achieve the movement of the hand.
>
>
> Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.
>  and
>
> If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed
> that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor, which would
> result in the wrist being bent. That would mean there would be a rotation
> of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second writing of
> minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to
> the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That would mean
> there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.
>
> When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor nor
> the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would be
> understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer to
> decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might be
> easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be
> disagreements as to which is faster to understand.
>
> I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why
> most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But
> that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.
>
> So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their own
> ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)
>
>
>
> On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Valerie and all,
>
> Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling of
> ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to flex
> side-to-side.
>
> I found *another* ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the sign
> for ONE SECOND.
>
> I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning.
> Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a
> very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of
> SW spelling.
>
> Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video of
> Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this sign,
> and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me doing
> an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist
> side-flex. Please watch *both* videos.
>
> Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist
> side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be
> correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?
>
> Thanks,
> AnnaGrace
> <SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png>
>  Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> wrote:
>
>> SignWriting List,
>> November 3, 2022
>>
>> Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,
>>
>> Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language and
>> American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both are
>> wonderful to write ;-)
>>
>> I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the
>> world.
>>
>> Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to share in
>> this way?
>>
>> Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position of
>> the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our
>> previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol
>> shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from
>> side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to
>> it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -
>>
>> I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it is
>> rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement Arrows,
>> such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the arrows but
>> remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows continuous
>> contact in this case:
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
>>
>>
>> And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
>>
>>  this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to side
>> from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so there
>> are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly
>> because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to
>> side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is
>> since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)
>>
>> Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -
>>
>> And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that you
>> have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the same
>> meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very
>> different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating
>> but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>  Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE
>>
>> Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a
>> good project too -
>>
>> Thanks for the discussion!
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> ---------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <hdeviar at GMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Greetings Valery and Anna,
>> >
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> >  The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign in
>> the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign
>> Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could
>> be
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> > , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one language
>> into another, generally in written form, between Written and Signed Video.
>> And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I intuitively used
>> the same symbol movement.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <AnnaGrace's
> movement for "one second".MOV>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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