[Sw-l] Question about wrist side-flex

Mon Nov 14 16:49:31 UTC 2022

Hi all,

example for wrist-movement to front and back:
https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489
-> double arrow shaft

https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625
-> double arrow shaft

https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619
-> only one arrow shaft

Thanks!
Uta

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:41 PM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> especially interesting:
>
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/WhatsApp/14548230564932464:1781
> -> handorientation is wrong, sorry. But how can the movement track be
> displayed better.
>
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Theta_gr_klein_/10404133549140756:46
> -> similar problem
>
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Teleskop/14548230564932464:1024
> -> wrist movement usually keeps the arm still, but this is not the case
> here. The hand tends to stay in the same place while the arm moves. Idea
> how to write it down?
>
>
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Wireless%20Local%20Area%20Network%20%28WLAN%29/15390698211663808:501
> -> with wrist movement?
>
> Thanks
> Uta
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:01 PM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adam and all,
>>
>> "I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. "
>>
>> I find your statement so interesting.
>> I also wondered when I was learning signwriting why the arrows in hand
>> gestures are straight. For me, that's mostly a quarter circle.
>> I've created a lot of sign scripts, so I've noticed that sometimes it
>> doesn't matter whether it's straight or quadrant. Only the direction has to
>> be right. Because if you sign small, then the arm would rather stay still
>> and only the hand moves, the movement path is rather curvy. But if you sign
>> big, then your arm moves with you, so the path of movement can be straight
>> or curved.
>>
>> My conclusion: straight lines are easier to draw and read, but harder to
>> understand. Especially to the front or back
>>
>> Question for you: How do you write that? On the table level with an arrow
>> shaft and on the window level with a double arrow shaft. But at the rowboat
>> level?
>>
>> https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche
>> You can select the wrist symbol for "movement", then you will get all
>> gestures with wrist movement.
>>
>> If you feel like it, you are welcome to compare videos with sign writing
>> and see whether you would also write in this way. :)
>>
>> Greetings Uta
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:05 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think what we are seeing here is best explained by “proximalization”,
>>> which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign language to
>>> produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints to distal
>>> joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the shoulder
>>> towards the fingertips.
>>>
>>> Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to your
>>> hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your hand.
>>> This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to achieve
>>> the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your arm is
>>> parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to bend
>>> in order to achieve the movement of the hand.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.
>>>  and
>>>
>>> If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed
>>> that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor, which would
>>> result in the wrist being bent. That would mean there would be a
>>> rotation of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second
>>> writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat
>>> parallel to the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That
>>> would mean there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.
>>>
>>> When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor
>>> nor the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would
>>> be understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer
>>> to decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might
>>> be easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be
>>> disagreements as to which is faster to understand.
>>>
>>> I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why
>>> most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But
>>> that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.
>>>
>>> So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their
>>> own ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>
>>> Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling of
>>> ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to flex
>>> side-to-side.
>>>
>>> I found *another* ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the sign
>>> for ONE SECOND.
>>>
>>> I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning.
>>> Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a
>>> very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of
>>> SW spelling.
>>>
>>> Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video of
>>> Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this sign,
>>> and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me doing
>>> an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist
>>> side-flex. Please watch *both* videos.
>>>
>>> Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist
>>> side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be
>>> correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AnnaGrace
>>> <SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png>
>>>  Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov
>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/138v-_UuPcOe_6E7dMrQ5FI7l7X_ILzPk/view?usp=drive_web>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SignWriting List,
>>>> November 3, 2022
>>>>
>>>> Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language
>>>> and American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both
>>>> are wonderful to write ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the
>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>> Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to share
>>>> in this way?
>>>>
>>>> Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position
>>>> of the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our
>>>> previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol
>>>> shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from
>>>> side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to
>>>> it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -
>>>>
>>>> I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it is
>>>> rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement Arrows,
>>>> such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the arrows but
>>>> remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows continuous
>>>> contact in this case:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to side
>>>> from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so there
>>>> are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly
>>>> because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to
>>>> side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is
>>>> since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -
>>>>
>>>> And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that you
>>>> have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the same
>>>> meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very
>>>> different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating
>>>> but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>  Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE
>>>>
>>>> Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a
>>>> good project too -
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the discussion!
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <hdeviar at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Greetings Valery and Anna,
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> >  The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign
>>>> in the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign
>>>> Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could
>>>> be
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> > , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one language
>>>> into another, generally in written form, between Written and Signed Video.
>>>> And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I intuitively used
>>>> the same symbol movement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <AnnaGrace's
>>> movement for "one second".MOV>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>
>>

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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