[Sw-l] Question about wrist side-flex

Tue Nov 15 07:55:25 UTC 2022

Hi Adam,

there are three planes:
[image: image.png]

Stefan Wöhrmann wrote a book about sign writing. It is called "Handbuch zur
Gebärdenschrift".
He gives names for three planes:
yellow -> Fensterebene (englisch: window plane)
green -> Tischebene (englisch: table plane)
blue -> Ruderbootebene (englisch: rowboat plane)

for window plane it will always use wrist symbol for window plane, arrow
with double shaft.
for table plane it will always use wrist symbol for table plane, arrow with
one shaft.
for rowboat plane, I am not sure here.

Greetings Uta

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:00 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:

> Or would you, for example, keep the hand position (orientation) with the
> gesture "WLAN"?
>
>
> If I didn’t know the sign and saw it written with just the curved arrow, I
> might first try to read it “literally” without any wrist flex. But if I
> know the sign, I would quickly realize that there isn’t a sign that moves
> without the wrist flex and I would add it without even thinking. I do that
> quite often with ASL to where I almost don’t even realize there are any
> extra movements that aren’t written.
>
> So for everyday writing, I think it would be best not to include it
> because writing usually assumes the reader knows the language and doesn’t
> have to include everything. For research, the details are needed though.
>
> Is that the rule for the rowboat plane?
>
>
> I’m not sure what you mean by rowboat plane.
>
>
> Adam
>
> On Nov 14, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> "And to make it even harder to choose what spelling to use, some people
> might see one type of movement while other people don’t. I’m sure that is
> why it took generations for many spoken languages to even have standardized
> spelling. :-)"
>
> Yes, how right you are.
> This may also be one of the many reasons why sign writing is not spreading
> quickly. This will need time.
>
> All presented gestures written down :) That's very kind of you. and that
> you remember that it is important to me that the sign search works. My idea
> is that the "superfluous" symbols, which one can recognize from other
> symbols, can "disappear" in the first part of the SWU code. It is only
> important for the sign search.
>
> I really like your suggestions with as few symbols as possible. Easier to
> read. Even if sometimes you don't know how to do it. but my feeling says
> that with experience you somehow automatically know, even if probably not
> always. Do you think so too? Or would you, for example, keep the hand
> position (orientation) with the gesture "WLAN"?
>
>
> The sign "Teleskop" ist really hard.
> <image.png> This looks terrible, although many arrows are still missing :D
>
>
> Is that the rule for the rowboat plane?
>
> <image.png>
> Forward    backwards      up          downward
>
> Greetings
> Uta
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 6:56 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Apache (https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489)
>> <Screen Shot 2022-11-14 at 9.43.03 AM.png>
>>
>> Run (https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625)
>> <Screen Shot 2022-11-14 at 9.37.37 AM.png>
>> I know you had just the downward wrist flex movement, but I also saw an
>> arm movement so I added it.
>> I’m also thinking that maybe this movement is not a downward wrist flex,
>> but a backward wrist flex. But if that is the case, then should the palm
>> facing be changed? What do others think?
>>
>> Response (https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619)
>> <Screen Shot 2022-11-14 at 9.30.09 AM.png>
>>
>> This isn’t an official rule/guideline, but I have noticed that often the
>> palm facing has an impact on which plane the wrist flex is. If the palm
>> faces the wall, the wrist flex will generally be on the floor plane. If the
>> palm faces the floor plane, the wrist flex will generally be on the wall
>> plane. The three spellings above are examples of that.
>>
>> <namesign.png>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> example for wrist-movement to front and back:
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Apache/14548230564932464:489
>> -> double arrow shaft
>>
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/run/14548230564932464:1625
>> -> double arrow shaft
>>
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Response/14548230564932464:1619
>> -> only one arrow shaft
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Uta
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:41 PM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> especially interesting:
>>>
>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/WhatsApp/14548230564932464:1781
>>> -> handorientation is wrong, sorry. But how can the movement track be
>>> displayed better.
>>>
>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Theta_gr_klein_/10404133549140756:46
>>> -> similar problem
>>>
>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Teleskop/14548230564932464:1024
>>> -> wrist movement usually keeps the arm still, but this is not the case
>>> here. The hand tends to stay in the same place while the arm moves. Idea
>>> how to write it down?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Wireless%20Local%20Area%20Network%20%28WLAN%29/15390698211663808:501
>>> -> with wrist movement?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Uta
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 5:01 PM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Adam and all,
>>>>
>>>> "I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>>>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>>>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>>>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. "
>>>>
>>>> I find your statement so interesting.
>>>> I also wondered when I was learning signwriting why the arrows in hand
>>>> gestures are straight. For me, that's mostly a quarter circle.
>>>> I've created a lot of sign scripts, so I've noticed that sometimes it
>>>> doesn't matter whether it's straight or quadrant. Only the direction has to
>>>> be right. Because if you sign small, then the arm would rather stay still
>>>> and only the hand moves, the movement path is rather curvy. But if you sign
>>>> big, then your arm moves with you, so the path of movement can be straight
>>>> or curved.
>>>>
>>>> My conclusion: straight lines are easier to draw and read, but harder
>>>> to understand. Especially to the front or back
>>>>
>>>> Question for you: How do you write that? On the table level with an
>>>> arrow shaft and on the window level with a double arrow shaft. But at the
>>>> rowboat level?
>>>>
>>>> https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche
>>>> You can select the wrist symbol for "movement", then you will get all
>>>> gestures with wrist movement.
>>>>
>>>> If you feel like it, you are welcome to compare videos with sign
>>>> writing and see whether you would also write in this way. :)
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Uta
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:05 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think what we are seeing here is best explained by
>>>>> “proximalization”, which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign
>>>>> language to produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints
>>>>> to distal joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the
>>>>> shoulder towards the fingertips.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to
>>>>> your hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your
>>>>> hand. This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to
>>>>> achieve the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your
>>>>> arm is parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to
>>>>> bend in order to achieve the movement of the hand.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.
>>>>> <Screen Shot 2022-11-06 at 11.38.33 AM.png> and <Screen Shot
>>>>> 2022-11-06 at 11.38.53 AM.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed
>>>>> that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor, which would
>>>>> result in the wrist being bent. That would mean there would be a
>>>>> rotation of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second
>>>>> writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat
>>>>> parallel to the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That
>>>>> would mean there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor
>>>>> nor the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would
>>>>> be understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer
>>>>> to decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might
>>>>> be easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be
>>>>> disagreements as to which is faster to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>>>>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>>>>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>>>>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why
>>>>> most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But
>>>>> that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their
>>>>> own ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling
>>>>> of ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to
>>>>> flex side-to-side.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found *another* ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the
>>>>> sign for ONE SECOND.
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning.
>>>>> Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a
>>>>> very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of
>>>>> SW spelling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video
>>>>> of Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this
>>>>> sign, and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me
>>>>> doing an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist
>>>>> side-flex. Please watch *both* videos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist
>>>>> side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be
>>>>> correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> AnnaGrace
>>>>> <SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png>
>>>>>  Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov
>>>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/138v-_UuPcOe_6E7dMrQ5FI7l7X_ILzPk/view?usp=drive_web>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List,
>>>>>> November 3, 2022
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language
>>>>>> and American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both
>>>>>> are wonderful to write ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the
>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to
>>>>>> share in this way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position
>>>>>> of the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our
>>>>>> previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol
>>>>>> shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from
>>>>>> side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to
>>>>>> it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it
>>>>>> is rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement
>>>>>> Arrows, such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the
>>>>>> arrows but remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows
>>>>>> continuous contact in this case:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to
>>>>>> side from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so
>>>>>> there are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly
>>>>>> because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to
>>>>>> side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is
>>>>>> since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that
>>>>>> you have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the
>>>>>> same meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very
>>>>>> different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating
>>>>>> but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>>  Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a
>>>>>> good project too -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the discussion!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <hdeviar at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Greetings Valery and Anna,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>> >  The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign
>>>>>> in the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign
>>>>>> Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>> > , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one
>>>>>> language into another, generally in written form, between Written and
>>>>>> Signed Video. And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I
>>>>>> intuitively used the same symbol movement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>
>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <AnnaGrace's
>>>>> movement for "one second".MOV>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>
>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

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