[Sw-l] Discussion about the illogical structures in the fill function of the hand orientation of some hand symbols in the GitHUB Unicode of Sutton SignWriting symbols

[Adam Frost]

This is always a place of confusion for writers because there are two different ways of looking at hand with fingers that bend or curve forward. One way to look at them, which I believe is how you are looking at them, is that the fingers are always in the same place on the root shape. If they have the bend or curve forward, it can either be to the right or left depending on they preference of the writer or the clarity of the symbol. This actually leads to a lot of confusion because different people have different preferences and/or views on what has more clarity.

The other way to look at them is that the bent or curved fingers should always go towards the center of the body. Sometimes this will mean that the fingers will have to be “moved” from their standard placing so that the fingers don’t overlap the root shape. The examples you showed are a result of this. Using this view, this is how I would write “controller”:



Because of this difference in view, the symbols with fingers that bend or curve were ordered exactly the same as the other fills. This allows for both views. If you would like to write “controller” the way you did, that is fine too.

Now, if you are worried about sorting, this might be a case when you would need to make some reordering in coding to allow for your sorting to work as you would like.

If I understand correctly, you have been using rotations 1-8 (0-7) as the right hand and rotation 9-16 (8-F) as the left hand? As a lexicographer myself for ASL, I would personally advise not doing this because there are times when the palm facing of the hands can cross over this “boundary” even without the issue you are asking about. I have encountered it a couple of times myself. The most famous example in ASL is “money” (https://signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=897).


Adam

> On Mar 14, 2024, at 9:35 AM, Craxton Peter Jakob <Peter-Jakob.Craxton at haw-landshut.de> wrote:
> 
> Hello SignWriting List members, 
> 
> First of all I would like to introduce myself. My name is Peter Craxton and I am working with Uta Meissner in a project funded by the German government. The aim of this project is to develop a Signlexicon (www.sign4all.de <http://www.sign4all.de/>) that has a SignWriting image using Sutton SignWriting Unicode.  
> Uta works on improving the efficiency of the SignMaker application. Every day, my project team members and Uta write sign gestures using SignMaker. In Sign4All and Sign2MINT there are more than 7,000 sign gestures with SWU. We will be writing several thousand sign gestures. 
> 
> The speed of creating SignWriting images for every sign gesture is increasing. We use various functions of SignMaker. However, there is confusion in creating SignWriting images in the Fill function of hand symbols. 
> 
> I would like to give some hints about the structures of the hand orientation of some symbols which are not logical. First, I will show some examples that are logical and some that are illogical: 
> 
> 1. example (logical):  „B“- hand shape ( U+41AA1)
> 
> <Bildschirmfoto 2024-03-14 um 15.54.17.png>
> 
> I think that we can follow hand orientation by thumb fingers. That is logical structure which we can fill hand symbols effectively.
> 
> 2. example (illogical): "Rein Hand“ (one of 30 phonemes in the DGS German Sign Language) (U+457C1 (https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/characters/symbols.html#?ui=en&set=swu&sym=457C1))
> 
> Please see following picture. 
> 
> <Bildschirmfoto 2024-03-14 um 16.24.13.png>
> 
> There are some other illogical structures in the following links: 
> 
> https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/characters/symbols.html#?ui=en&set=swu&sym=458E1
> https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/characters/symbols.html#?ui=en&set=swu&sym=45B81
> https://slevinski.github.io/SuttonSignWriting/characters/symbols.html#?ui=en&set=swu&sym=45941 
> 
> We can follow the structure of the black and half-black filled hand symbols, but the white filled hand symbols show fingers on the other side. 
> My team members and Uta have a different perspective in the signwriting of the "controller" gesture: https://sign4all.de/entry/Controller/recSqqLlJ0E52fLTT
> 
> Another example that shows the correct picture but the wrong symbol: https://sign4all.de/entry/Behandlungszimmer/reck6lCgZwxr5YqHF
> 
> Both perspectives are correct, but they lead to discussions about what is right or wrong.
> 
> I am curious how the different structures of hand symbols were determined. I think if the hand symbols in the red circle were restructured / moved, it would be more logical. What do you think? 
> 
> I am delighted to begin this discussion. Thank you!
> 
> Best wishes 
> 
> Peter Craxton 
> 
> 𝠃𝤘𝤴񆇡𝣵𝤌񆇡𝤎𝤌񅯣𝣱𝤜񉌇𝣼𝤚񍠁𝣴𝣵
> <Bildschirmfoto 2024-03-14 um 16.58.38.png>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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