About the estimates of divergence times of Uralic languages

[Ante Aikio]

Dear all,

I absolutely agree with the comments Merlijn de Smit and Santeri  
Junttila brought up. It is very important to keep in mind that 1)  
proto-language datings usually derive from complex chains of reasoning  
based on very indirect evidence, and a discovery new evidence or  
reinterpretation of old data may lead to dramatic changes in datings;  
2) because the breaking up of a proto-language is a slow process, it  
cannot be assigned a specific point of time - defining a time frame  
with a 'terminus ante quem' and 'terminus post quem' is a more  
reasonable approach.

Then regarding Terhi Honkola's original question:

The dating chosen for Proto-Ob-Ugric, 1700 YBP ± 200 years, seems  
highly unrealistic to me. It is true that such datings have been  
frequently proposed, especially in Hungarian research; they seem to be  
based on no clear evidence, though, and they are in any case at odds  
with very basic realities of linguistic taxonomy. We can compare  
Ob-Ugric to branches that are known to have a period of internal  
divergence of about 1500-2000 years, namely Finnic and Saamic. It is  
quite clear that the Ob-Ugric languages Khanty and Mansi are *much*  
more distantly related to each other than, for instance, the Finnic  
languages are. Khanty and Mansi share much less vocabulary (including  
basic vocabulary), and there are quite dramatic grammatical and  
phonological differences between the languages. Their greater degree  
divergence is also reflected in difficulties in reconstruction - there  
is no well-argued, detailed reconstruction on Proto-Ob-Ugric so far,  
in the sense there is of Proto-Finnic and Proto-Saami.

Further problems may be caused by uncertainties in linguistic  
taxonomy. I assume 'Early Proto-Finnic' is to be understood as  
referring to the same level of reconstruction as 'Proto-Finno-Saamic',  
as traditionally is the case. At the moment there is controversy  
whether 'Finno-Saamic' should be recognized as a valid genetic node,  
and I think we can safely say at least that the proposed innovations  
defining such a subgroup have, for the most part, also alternative  
explanations (mainly language contact). In such a case, I do not see  
it as very good idea to choose that level of reconstruction as a  
'calibration point', as we might very well be trying to date a  
proto-language that did not really even exist as a coherent entity.

best regards,
Ante Aikio



> Lainaus "Terhi Honkola" <terhi.honkola at utu.fi>:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I´m a PhD student in a research group called BEDLAN (Biological
> Evolution and the
> Diversification of Languages) where we analyse linguistic data with
> biological methods.
> For further information see  http://kielievoluutio.uta.fi.
>
> The reason why I approach to you, the members of URA-LIST, now is that
> I have done
> lately timing analyses to the Uralic languages. An essential part in
> those analyses is
> the correct estimation of the calibration points. I  have already gone
> through different
> sources (i.e. Sinor 1988, Abondolo 1998, Kallio 2006) where divergence
> times of
> languages have earlier been estimated and by now I have used the
> following calibration
> points:
> *Early Proto-Finnic: 2500 YBP (years before present) ± 500 years
> *Obugric 1700 YBP ± 200 years
> *Permic 1300 YBP ± 100 years
>
> Do you think that these calibration points with these error scales are
> appropriate or
> would you suggest us to use some other calibration points?
>
> I ask this as I believe research is done around this topic all the time
> and now I would
> like to hear your newest results about the divergence times of Uralic
> languages to see
> if, for example, the error scales of the timings could be narrowed. I
> was also hoping
> you could give me names of articles which I could read around this topic.
>
> I would appreciate your answers very much.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Terhi Honkola
>
> *******************
>
> Terhi Honkola
> PhD student
> Section of Ecology, Department of Biology
> University of Turku
> FIN-20014 TURKU
> Finland
>
>
>
> --
> ura-list at helsinki.fi - list for Uralic linguistics and related disciplines
> to (un)subscribe, send majordomo at helsinki.fi a message:
> (un)subscribe ura-list my.own at email.address
> Mirror archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/ura-list.html




--
ura-list at helsinki.fi - list for Uralic linguistics and related disciplines
to (un)subscribe, send majordomo at helsinki.fi a message:
(un)subscribe ura-list my.own at email.address
Mirror archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/ura-list.html