[Ura-list] ISO639-3: Any requests?

[Jeremy Bradley]

Dear colleagues,

Arto makes a good point about how the current nomenclature is 
transparent from the outside. The question now is if it's more important 
for the nomenclature to be transparent, or to match the usage by the 
speaker community: I honestly don't know.

About Northwestern Mari: the question I was asked was what members of 
the speaker community would use in writing. The answer honest answer to 
that is "Russian". There is, however, a codified literary norm (with a 
букварь published in 1995), with two additional letters not found in 
Hill Mari for the extra vowel phonemes: ө, ӫ. I don't know of any 
ongoing publications actually *using* this norm, but I talked to a 
colleague (Tanaka Takashi) who recently visited the NW Mari areas, and 
he tells me that when he encountered Mari in writing, it was actually in 
this writing system: e.g. on a WW2 memorial, and a school project at an 
elementary school. This to me would not be enough to necessitate an ISO 
code, but since this whole thing was set off by a request from within 
the community, apparently, I think we can give the people at SIL this 
information, and let them decide.

All the best,
Jeremy

On 14/02/2019 08:50, Arto Moisio wrote:
> Dear colleagues
>
> If we speak about the current situation of Mari languages three codes for Mari languages are satisfying.
> chm – macrocode for Mari
> mrj – Western Mari
> mhr – Eastern Mari
> There are Eastern and Western literary languages, two codes for them and one macrocode for both (or all).
>
> There is no actual literary language for the Northwestern Mari, it exists as a dialect. On the level of dialects you can find four major dialects: Eastern, Central (as Meadow), Western (as Hill) and Northwestern. After that there are several subdialects, and still nobody is demanding codes for all of them. On the level of literary languages the division into two is enough.
>
> Second point of view: If you know nothing about Mari language the names as Hill Mari and Meadow Mari are very confusing. Does the Mari language change with the altitude :) ? Looking at a map the Urals are considerable high hills. Are the Hill Maris there, to the west from the Eastern Maris? So, on the international or general level we should speak about Western and Eastern Mari (reflecting their literary languages). In that context the name of Northwestern Mari is useable, too, meaning as a dialect.
>
> All the best,
> Arto Moisio
> University of Turku
> Finland
> ________________________________________
> Lähettäjä: Jeremy Bradley [jeremy.moss.bradley at univie.ac.at]
> Lähetetty: 13. helmikuuta 2019 18:18
> Vastaanottaja: ura-list at helsinki.fi
> Aihe: ISO639-3: Any requests?
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I have found myself in an unexpected position where colleagues from SIL International have approached me about changes to language codes in ISO639-3 - specifically, they've received several requests to have a code added for Northwestern Mari, and wanted to know if that is a legitimate classification. In my interactions with the responsible person, I mentioned that the way Mari is handled is less than optimal, and ... she tells me that this can actually be fixed. I just need to tell her what changes she should request.
>
> Before I request changes that would be unpopular in the wider scene on my own initiative, I wanted to ask if: ( a ) anyone has any objections to my suggestions regarding Mari given below, ( b ) anyone has any similar requests for other Uralic languages that I should pass on, while I have a live communication channel with the right person.
>
> -----------------------
>
> Currently, there are three codes for Mari:
>
> chm - Mari (macrocode)
> mrj - Western Mari
> mhr - Eastern Mari
>
> The labeling is not great as mhr first and foremost refers to the Meadow Mari literary standard (used primarily in the eastern parts of Mari El), and not the Eastern Mari dialects (spoken by the diaspora in and around the Ural mountains east of Mari El). Since the Eastern Mari diaspora does use the Meadow literary standard, Russian- and Mari-language sources in recent years make reference to "Meadow-Eastern Mari" when talking about the literary standard. This label could be adopted for mhr, while mrj could be renamed "Hill Mari" to match contemporary usage. ("Western Mari" isn't as problematic as "Eastern Mari" as there is no ambiguity here, but it is still a somewhat dated nomenclature that doesn't represent usage by the speaker community.)
>
> A new code could be created for Northwestern Mari as there is a distinct literary norm - it doesn't see much usage and has no official standing, but it exists. As there are no attempts to create a distinct literary norm for Eastern Mari (that I know of), the criteria for an own code are not currently met (there has to be either lacking mutual intelligibility, or a distinct literary norm, for there to be a code), and Meadow and Eastern Mari should currently stay subsumed under mhr.
>
> -----------------------
> All the best,
> Jeremy
>
>
> --
> Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
> University of Vienna
>
> http://www.mari-language.com
> jeremy.moss.bradley at univie.ac.at<mailto:jeremy.moss.bradley at univie.ac.at>
>
> Office address:
> Institut EVSL
> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
> Universität Wien
> Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
> Spitalgasse 2-4
> 1090 Wien
> AUSTRIA
>
> Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
> Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley

-- 
Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
University of Vienna

http://www.mari-language.com
jeremy.moss.bradley at univie.ac.at

Office address:
Institut EVSL
Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
Universität Wien
Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
Spitalgasse 2-4
1090 Wien
AUSTRIA

Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley

--
ura-list at helsinki.fi - list for Uralic linguistics and related disciplines
to (un)subscribe, send majordomo at helsinki.fi a message:
(un)subscribe ura-list my.own at email.address
Mirror archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ura-list/