pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)

Sat Nov 4 01:15:06 UTC 2006

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Given that there is no officially-defined and governmentally specified
>and sanctioned dialect of English in the United States, it's not
>possible to speak of a correctly-spoken version of USA English.

I agree.  But one can speak of media Englsih.

>The sounds of American English as specified by m-w.com are mrely a
>reflection of the personal opinions of the staff of m-w.com, nothing
>more.

The same for any dictionary.  Right?

>Therefore, the sounds of spoken English as defined by m-w.com
>can not be used to refute anyone else's personal opinion or any other
>definition of what the sounds of spoken English are.

Nor any dictionary, right?

>Needless to say, my own pronunciation of "slang" does not correspond
>to that described by m-w.com. Rather, I pronounce "slang" with the
>twang (stereo)typical of most Southern speakers.

M-w.com has sound files of the words.  They are spoken aloud.  We can argue
if it's typical.  For "slang" I think it is.  It rhymes with "twang" and
both have long a vowels.

Of course Souther dialect is not the main dialect of USA though it's a
biggie.  The main dialect is well represented in w-m.com.  It's on TV and
radio every day.

>-Wilson
>
>
>On 11/1/06, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> >
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Thanks Joe,
> >
> > Interesting approach.  Or we can just trust our own hearing to hear that
>the
> > vowel in "slang" and "slant" are different enough to be different
>phonemes.
> >
> > It would be great if you use the actual words of m-w.com.  Say "slaying"
> > then eliminte the "i" vowel so you get "slayng."  Basically that's what
>the
> > speaker in m-w.com is saying and that speaker is saying it correctly as
>is
> > spoken in USA English.
> >
> > Words like "anger" and "anchor" start with a long a, but in m-w.com I
>think
> > that speaker doesn't say that vowel all the way to long a.  Basically as
>I
> > hear it in TV and radio media, ang/ank are typically long a.
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> > See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Joseph Salmons <jsalmons at WISC.EDU>
> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >Subject: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> > >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:30:45 -0600
> > >
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >Poster:       Joseph Salmons <jsalmons at WISC.EDU>
> > >Subject:      pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Greetings. I've just rejoined ADS-list after being off it for a few
> > >years, partly prompted by hearing about the interesting recent slang/
> > >slant discussion. This 'pre-velar raising' is a topic a few of us
> > >here in Wisconsin are starting to work on, especially Tom Purnell.  I
> > >hope this message doesn't repeat earlier discussion (or steal Tom's
> > >thunder), but here's basically how things are looking to us right now:
> > >
> > >/ae/ raising before g (and usually eng/angma and sometimes before k)
> > >can sound like either /ej/ or /E/ to outsiders, and with considerable
> > >variation across speakers. It is creeping into awareness here, in
> > >particular with the word 'bag', which is pretty much a stereotype of
> > >Wisconsin speech for some people. (In addition to the Zeller article,
> > >Labov et al. discuss it at some length in the Atlas, showing the
> > >pattern stretching beyond Wisconsin and Minnesota, but looking
> > >particularly strong here.) One story (I've heard it told by a noted
> > >member of this society, but independently from others too) involves a
> > >newcomer going into a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread and some
> > >milk; he hears the cashier ask "Wanna beg for that?" The newcomer
> > >wonders, "I have to beg? I just paid for it." (The Wisconsin-oriented
> > >language blogger Mr. Verb, http://mr-verb.blogspot.com/, recently
> > >made a pretty obscure allusion to this pattern in a post, in fact.)
> > >We get /ae/ merging with /ej/ (the vowel of 'bay') for some speakers,
> > >which is what Zeller reports. Still it looks like not all raisers
> > >merge these sounds: Some seem to have the raised /ae/ coming out
> > >close to (maybe identical with) [E], as the perceptual bag/beg
> > >confusion would suggest. (But some people with a good ear vehemently
> > >deny that it ever yields [E].) Some speakers with this pattern also
> > >show really clear lowering of /ej/ before g, including in
> > >disyllabics:  vague, bagel, Reagan, segue, etc. For some, v[ae]gue in
> > >particular is not variable -- it's just how they say that word. My
> > >sense is that this has to be hypercorrection, but we haven't done
> > >much on this yet, or gathered much data (though Tom's doing the
> > >latter right now.)
> > >
> > >Matt Gordon raises a number of really good questions about this
> > >process which we have just started to look at data on: Is it related
> > >to NCS? From what we've seen so far, the answer is maybe. Note that
> > >the NCS isn't found as far west as Minnesota, or even western
> > >Wisconsin, where pre-velar raising is widespread. That suggests that
> > >it's a different deal.  Is it phonetically different from NCS? It is
> > >most definitely. Is it older than NCS?  We've looked at /ae/ before /
> > >g/ and alveolars in some DARE recordings from southeast Wisconsin and
> > >the oldest speakers show no raising in either environment. With a few
> > >speakers born somewhat later, we get some suggestive patterns before
> > >alveolars, like NCS (but notably too early for the usual chronology
> > >of that shift), and none before /g/. Later, but still before NCS
> > >should be showing up, we start seeing pre-velar raising. (For the
> > >phonetically inclined: Tom's working out a way of calculating /ae/
> > >raising that gets away from the simple 700 hz threshold that's been
> > >criterial for NCS to date, but that's a topic for a paper by him, not
> > >an ADS-list post. I suspect that Tom's approach allows us to see
> > >earlier stirrings of NCS than the 700 hz measure.) But note that
> > >these historical recordings are from southeastern Wisconsin -- Tom
> > >has suggested in conversation that pre-velar raising could also have
> > >started elsewhere (say, Minnesota) and spread down to meet NCS. If
> > >that's so, it could be older, but then from outside of NCS territory.
> > >
> > >We will be working on this for some time to come and hope we'll know
> > >more before too long. Concretely, we should soon have some audio
> > >samples of these patterns on the Wisconsin Englishes Project page,
> > >http://csumc.wisc.edu:16080/wep/.
> > >
> > >Oh, finally, Paul Johnston mentioned a possible correlation with
> > >'pop' vs. 'soda', but that line cuts north/south through eastern
> > >Wisconsin, so that we get this 'bag' pattern with 'soda' and 'pop'
> > >speakers up here.
> > >
> > >Onward,
> > >Joe
> > >Center for the Study of Upper Midwestern Cultures
> > >901 University Bay Drive
> > >University of Wisconsin
> > >Madison, WI 53705
> > >http://csumc.wisc.edu/
> > >
> > >http://german.lss.wisc.edu/homes/jsalmons/
> > >
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>complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
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>--Sam Clemens
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