antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Dennis Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Fri Oct 5 12:50:15 UTC 2007
/pak/ is, of course, not a recommendation for a spelling, as the /'s indicate.
dInIs
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>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it
>contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's
>pronounced "pack" in American English. The best
>choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in
>"Saab". In truespel it would be ~paak.
>
>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus
>"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400
>> From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
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>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that
>> the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by
>> the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea.
>> Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar,
>> back in the day?
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
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>>>mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British
>>> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named
>>> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/).
>>>
>>> dInIs
>>>
>>>
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>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote
>>>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account
>>>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless
>>>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was
>>>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE
>>>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found
>>>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read
>>>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is
>>>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set
>>>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used
>>>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native
>>>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what
>>>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have
>>>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording.
>>>>
>>>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson
>>>>
>>>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
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>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>>
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson,
>>>>>
>>>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
> >>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
> >>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
>>>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
>>>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
>>>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
>>>>> both).
>>>>>
>>>>> dInIs
>>>>>
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>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
>>>>>>gwine _ter_ do it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
>>>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
>>>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home
>>>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from
>>>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
>>>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
>>>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.`
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
>>>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>>>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
>>>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Ben Zimmer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dennis R. Preston
>>>>> University Distinguished Professor
>>>>> Department of English
>>>>> 15C Morrill Hall
>>>>> Michigan State University
>>>>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>>>>> 517-353-4736
>>>>> preston at msu.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>-----
>>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit
>>> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man
>>> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred
>>> North Whitehead
>>>
>>> Dennis R. Preston
>>> University Distinguished Professor
>>> Department of English
>>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>>> Michigan State University
>>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA
>>> Office: (517) 353-4736
>>> Fax: (517) 353-3755
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> -----
>> -Sam'l Clemens
> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
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