"and" in numerical expressions

Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
Wed May 13 03:38:25 UTC 2009

In the strict, Lutheran parochial schools I attended, I was taught
that both forms were acceptable, neither one preferred. Such liberal
thought as that was not common in Lutheran parochial schools in the
forties and fifties.

I do find that when counting objects, like railway cars, I tend to use
the "and" variant and when simply counting, as, perhaps, a way of
measuring time, I use the variant without "and."  I have no idea why.
I wasn't overtly taught that distinction.  I think I tend to have a
falling intonation one "a hundred and one" and a phrase intonation on
"one hundred one."  Does anyone say "a hundred one"?  That one sounds
strange to me.


On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "and" in numerical expressions
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Amazingly, I must report that no one in this forum was instructed in grammar/elementary/grade/primary school how to say numbers.
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:12:21 -0400
>> Subject: Re: "and" in numerical expressions
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Baker, John"
>> Subject: Re: "and" in numerical expressions
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The Arabian Nights Entertainments are sometimes given the title
>> The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, and variations thereon.
>> Perhaps there is a connection to the original Arabic.
>> I do call the book "One Hundred One Dalmatians," which
>> apparently is an indication of how strongly I am inclined to drop the
>> "and." But even I say "Thousand and One Nights."
>> John Baker
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
>> Of Arnold Zwicky
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 2:31 PM
>> Subject: "and" in numerical expressions
>> i've been working on a posting for Language Log on "and" in numerical
>> expressions, making the point that there are contexts in which One Right
>> Way is inapplicable here (that is, contexts where "and" and zero are
>> both acceptable, and in fact truth-functionally equivalent). this is
>> intended as posting two in the "making distinctions" series, which began
>> with:
>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1416
>> as in our previous foray into this topic, the postings here have been
>> all over the map, with all sorts of numerical expressions discussed, in
>> a number of different contexts, and with people reporting very different
>> experiences with the variation between things like "one hundred two" and
>> "one hundred two" when the expressions are used as determiners. usage
>> guides seem to be silent on the question, and both variants are easily
>> found in the speech of the educated and in "good writing" (when the
>> numbers are written out in words).
>> entertainingly, there are circumstances in which "and" in such
>> expressions is not only acceptable, but required. the title of the
>> "Arabian Nights" story collection is sometimes given as "1001 Nights",
>> but as far as i know this is always read as "A Thousand and One Nights",
>> never as "A Thousand One Nights", and when the digits are written out as
>> words, you get an "and", as in:
>> Stories from the Thousand and One Nights Translated by Edward William
>> Lane Revised by Stanley Lane-Poole
>> http://www.bartleby.com/16/
>> in a somewhat less elevated context, there's the book "The 101
>> Dalmatians" by Dodie Smith. as far as i know, the title is always read
>> with "hundred and one", never with "hundred one". the sequel,
>> "Starlight Barking", begins:
>> Not long ago there lived in Suffolk a hundred and one Dalmatians
>> whose adventures had once thrilled all the ... [note the "and"]
>> the first book then got made into a animated Walt Disney version (1961),
>> under the title "One Hundred and One Dalmatians" [note the "and"]. the
>> imdb at
>> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055254/
>> tells us that the movie is also known as "101 Dalmatians" (alternative
>> spelling). then there was a 1996 live-action remake entitled "101
>> Dalmatians" (so spelled). again, so far as i know, "101" in these
>> titles is always read with the "and".
>> there are probably more examples like these.
>> arnold
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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