the early days of "baloney"

Fri May 3 23:30:38 UTC 2013

On May 3, 2013, at 6:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Exx. like this are maddening because it's hard not to read later meanings
> into them, even if they weren't intended.
>
> In this case, though, the story seems pointless if "boloney" is meant
> literally. What's more, in that case the liquor-seeker would have been
> more likely to have muttered something about "a pound o' bologna," the
> words used by the shopkeeper.
>
> If, on the other hand, "a lot of baloney" was already a familiar idiom, the
> point would be its singular appropriateness in this case.
>
> "Nonsense" or "foolishness" in general may be a better interpretation here
> than the narrower "hogwash," since it seems to refer to the entire
> disappointing situation. My grandfather used to say "What a lot of
> baloney!" fairly often, not always specifically in reference to speech or
> writing (in contrast to how I think of "hogwash").
>
> So I'd say there's little reason to credit Conway with introducing the term.
>
> JL

And in our more delicate age, baloney/hogwash has turned into bullshit.  I don't imagine Prof. Frankfurt's slim philosophy volume would have sold nearly as many copies had it been entitled _Hogwash_.

LH
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu>wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: the early days of "baloney"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> JL, what do you think of the Jan. 23, 1922 cite from the Evening
>> World? Would you say it antedates the 'hogwash' meaning and takes away
>> the coinage credit from Jack Conway? Direct link:
>>
>> http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030193/1922-01-23/ed-1/seq-17/
>>
>> For the sake of completeness, here's a cite for "boloney" that doesn't
>> seem to fit any of the previously attested senses -- something like
>> 'bewildered, befuddled'?
>>
>> Seattle Daily Times, 11 Oct. 1924 , p. 1/1
>> "Today's Tides in Elliott Bay, Piloted by Captain Bob"
>> This Times' cross word puzzles has got me very much boloney and I'm
>> even trying to pick 'em out of the linoleum squares on the kitchen
>> floor.
>> Never mind the chessmen, Pauline, bring me the checkerboard.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice work, B & G.
>>>
>>> While it is true that Witwer applied the term "baloney" to third-rate
>>> fighters as early as 1920, I think it would be a mistake to assume that
>> the
>>> word was ever used so exclusively, particularly when Baron von Munchausen
>>> is called a "baloney" just two years later.  Nor am I aware that the word
>>> ever meant "liar" specifically. I certainly never encountered it in that
>>> sense, and it would be interesting if further exx. could be found.
>>>
>>> "Baloney" was, rather, a vaguely dismissive term for clumsy, ignorant,
>>> cloddish individuals.
>>>
>>> I suggest that the new meaning 'hogwash' came about from the
>> dismissiveness
>>> of Witwer's sense (which he may or may not have invented and which
>> appeared
>>> in _Collier's_, one of the nation's leading mass-circulation weeklies)
>> and
>>> the familiarity of "blarney," a word that was very common in the
>> journalism
>>> of that era and which, even in the '50s, was used - in my experience,
>>> anyway - more often in speech than it is today.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:24 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote:
>>>
>>>> Great article, Ben. You found some wonderful early citations for
>> boloney.
>>>>
>>>> The Language Log post and Ben's article referenced the fun 1926 saying
>>>> about slicing "bolognie". The discovery of this citation was announced
>>>> on this very list back in 2010. The citation was later added to
>>>> Barry's fine webpage and the seminal reference work The Dictionary of
>>>> Modern Proverbs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;JwjOSg;201008081944080400B
>>>>
>>>> Here is some additional text from the 1926 citation.
>>>>
>>>> [ref] 1926 May 9, The Sun, "No Matter How Thin You Slice It": Gab Of
>>>> Collegiate Papas And Self And Self-Starting Flappers Is Always
>>>> "Bolognie" Anyhow And In Sort Of Code by Katherine Scarborough, Page
>>>> MS1, Baltimore, Maryland. (ProQuest)[/ref]
>>>>
>>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>>> "No matter how thin you slice it." Which, as every flapper knows, is
>>>> merely bologna (pronounced "bolognie") served in the grand manner.
>>>>
>>>> It is a subtle, trenchant and convincing expression which the young
>>>> person with one earring uses to inform her collegiate papa that his
>>>> best line is sound and fury, signifying nothing.
>>>>
>>>> For "bolognie" is to the slang of the moment what applesauce was to
>>>> the vocabularies of yesteryear.
>>>> [End excerpt
>>>>
>>>> My data file from 2010 has a cite that might help illustrate the
>>>> semantic transition. In 1920 and 1921 baloney was used to label an
>>>> oafish boxer as Ben notes. In the following example "big baloney" is
>>>> used to label another type of person: a liar.
>>>>
>>>> [ref] 1922 October, The Mentor, Volume 23, Number 12, The Gopher Boys
>>>> by M.S.H., Start Page 23, Quote Page 23, Edited and printed by inmates
>>>> of the Massachusetts State Prison at Charlestown. (Google Books full
>>>> view)[/ref]
>>>>
>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=FIRIAAAAYAAJ&q=baloney#v=snippet&
>>>>
>>>> [Begin excerpt]
>>>> They get me cuckoo, with their tales of junk; which ain't truth, but
>>>> just colossal bunk! Old Munchausen copped the Liar's prize, but he was
>>>> a big baloney, and I can open your eyes!
>>>> [End excerpt]
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the introductory sentence of Ben's excellent column: The
>>>> article at Inside Higher Ed stated that Professor Bass was supportive
>>>> of the administration position and critical of some fellow faculty, I
>>>> think. The term "bologna" (with the odd spelling) was used by Bass to
>>>> label the stance or rationale of some faculty and not the
>>>> administration.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:37 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My new Word Routes column is on how "baloney" came to mean "nonsense"
>>>>> in the 1920s -- including some freshly discovered examples from
>>>>> newspaper articles and comic strips:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/how-baloney-got-phony/
>>
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>
>
>
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> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
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