Dive (was Re: Sad hour)

[Joel S. Berson]

At 1/8/2014 03:22 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>Of "dive," Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive) says:
>"(slang) A seedy bar, nightclub, etc."
>
>Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive_bar), however, says:
>
>-----
>A dive bar is an informal bar or pub. Such bars are sometimes
>referred to as neighborhood bars, where local residents gather to
>drink and socialize.
>
>Individual bars may be considered to be disreputable, sinister, or
>even a detriment to the community. This was especially true in earlier times:
>-----

Having grown up in earlier times (but later than Prohibition!!), I
associate "dive" with something disreputable or potentially
dangerous.  (And not with "informal" or "neighborhood", as Wikipedia
asserts.)  But it may have acquired an upper-crust or posh sense,
perhaps of "unusual" or "interesting because off-beat", more recently.

Joel


>I think the second sentence also means "neighborhood bars are
>generally referred to as dives." That is how I understand the word
>"dive," essentially the equivalent of a "tavern," a word I don't
>hear people using much anymore. (In Washington State, a "tavern" is
>defined as a drinking establishment that sells only beer and wine
>(http://dor.wa.gov/Content/DoingBusiness/BusinessTypes/Industry/Tavern/default.aspx),
>but I am referring to the atmosphere regardless of whether spirits are sold.)
>
>I would not generally consider a brew pub to be a dive, though there
>probably are places that could convince me of their diviness.
>
>I'm not sure what VS is talking about exactly, but I suspect this is
>along the lines of a divy brew pub that is, exuding an atmosphere
>below the casual level.
>
>Nobody else has commented on John Doe's (WG's) interesting
>observation of dive vs. dive bar; this divy development along with
>dive restaurants may be an indication that the word has shifted permanently.
>
>This leaves the problem of what to call a disreputable bar. Even "a
>shit/shitty hole in the wall" is likely a dysphemism for a divy
>neighborhood tavern/restaurant.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>
>On Jan 7, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've noticed conflicting usage in the last decade or so. One is indeed
> > along GT's outline. But there's a particular "underground" sense where a
> > dive bar would be fashionable among a particular kind of clientele. It's
> > hard to describe, but it cannot be truly upscale, must be fairly well
> > priced, serve particular kinds of drinks, including retro cocktails and
> > exude a certain kind of "dive" atmosphere. Merely calling it
> > "fashionable" is not enough. But it does appear to reflect a common GenY
> > reversal.
> >
> >     VS-)
> >
> >
> > On 1/7/2014 4:07 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> >> Good question. It might be a retronym to distinguish it from
> dive restaurants. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive says "A seedy
> bar, nightclub, etc."
> >>
> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:49 AM, John Doe <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Benjamin Barrett
> <gogaku at ix.netcom.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> dive bar
> >>>
> >>> In what way does a "dive *bar*" distinguish itself from an
> ordinary "dive"?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org