[Ads-l] to "dutch"

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Sun Dec 27 21:43:52 UTC 2020 

> On Dec 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> 
> If this was true in the 1800's, I'm persuaded.
> 
> Larry,
> 
> Most of these are first recorded long after the 17th C. herring wars.

Well, perhaps, but it seems reasonable to assume the animus remained.


> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I am not sure this is true. Even today, German servers normally record a
>> separate bill for each person, even marking beers or pitchers on an
>> individual's Deckel. It is not a big stretch to say that German beer halls
>> in the US in the 19th century used the same practice, which was called
>> "going Dutch".
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:44 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> But “Dutch treat" figures as part of a much larger set of slurs and
>>> epithets denigrating the Dutch that stem from the years in which the
>>> Britain and Holland were engaged in the “herring wars” for supremacy of
>> the
>>> North Sea, as itemized in Farmer & Henley, including inter alia:
>>> 
>>> Dutch act:  suicide
>>> Dutch bargain:  a bargain all on one side
>>> Dutch-clock:  a bedpan; a wife
>>> Dutch concert/medley:  a raucous hubbub
>>> Dutch consolation:  Job’s comfort (= “could be worse”)
>>> Dutch courage:  pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication
>>> Dutch fuck:  the practice of lighting one cigarette from another
>>> Dutch milk:  beer
>>> Dutch treat:  an outing at which one pays one’s own way
>>> Dutch widow:  a prostitute
>>> Dutch wife:  a bolster (on a bed)
>>> 
>>> —very much along the lines of:
>>> 
>>> Irish apricot (apple, lemon):  a potato
>>> Irishman’s dinner:  a fast
>>> Irish evidence:  false witness
>>> Irish kiss:  a slap in the face
>>> Irish promotion:  a pay-cut
>>> Irish twins:  two siblings who are not twins but are born less than a
>> year
>>> apart
>>> Irish wedding:  the emptying of a cesspool
>>> 
>>> LH
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I assumed that impression could have come from "German" or "Dutch"
>>> comedians who spoke in "dialect".
>>>> 
>>>> Weber and Fields were active during that period.  Several examples of
>>> their humor are available on youtube.
>>>> 
>>>> https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 10:52:55 AM
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> It sounds like adhockery to me, since I'm unaware of any tradition that
>>>> Germans "make themselves say what they don't mean." The Irish were
>>>> associated with absurd blunders ("bulls"), making the nonexistent
>> "Irish
>>>> book" a more likely expression of that idea.
>>>> 
>>>> Germans were notorious instead for their accents, lager, and sausages.
>>>> Vaudeville stereotyping was common, but no more so than for other
>> ethnic
>>>> groups.
>>>> 
>>>> Interesting find, though.
>>>> 
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:34 AM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> An early explanation of the word suggests it was "derived from the
>> habit
>>>>> some ignorant Germans have of making themselves say what they don't
>>> mean,
>>>>> and the flippant sports apply the term to a book that 'wins backward,'
>>> or
>>>>> stands to lose no matter which horse wons the race."
>>>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/66134635/the-los-angeles-times/
>>>>> 
>>>>> LA Times, October 25, 1903, page 23.
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
>>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:33:28 AM
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Subject: to "dutch"
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      to "dutch"
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> "To lay bets in such a way as to win by covering all possibilities
>>>>> proportionately; also fig."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not in OED.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1902 _St. Paul Globe_ (Dec. 21) 33: When the book was "Dutched," it
>>> meant
>>>>> that the player turned the tables on the bookie, and played every
>> horse
>>> in
>>>>> the race, certain of winning on practically all. ...In the days when
>> the
>>>>> men in the ring had the large slates, standing up in full view, on
>> which
>>>>> the prices were clearly written in large figures, it was an easy
>> matter
>>> to
>>>>> "Dutch" the books. [How-to details follow.]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1910 _Washington Times_ (Sept. 4) 12: The Cubs will be stronger
>>> favorites
>>>>> in Chicago than in Philadelphia. Fine chance to "Dutch the book."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1914 _Evening Bulletin _ (Providence, R.I.) (Sept. 11) Sec. III 9: At
>>> the
>>>>> beginning of the season these sporting men backed the champions at
>>> prices
>>>>> of 1 to 2 and 1 to 3. They are now endeavoring to lay off as a matter
>> of
>>>>> protection, to Dutch the book, in other words.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1916 _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ (Dec. 3) (Want Ads Section) 3: FOR
>>> SALE -
>>>>> ACRES AND RANCHES... A Chance to Dutch the Book...for $300 under
>> value,
>>>>> raise vegetables and chickens; you can't lose.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1924 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Oct. 2) (Sports) 2: One could easily
>>> "dutch
>>>>> the book" by betting on Washington in New York and the Giants in San
>>>>> Francisco. On such a basis, one would wager $1000 in New York to win
>>> $1200
>>>>> and $1000 in San Francisco to win $1250.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1932 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (June 14) (Sports) 15: In the East you
>>> might
>>>>> bet $800 on Schmeling against $1000. In San Francisco you would then
>>> wager
>>>>> $800 on Sharkey. What would happen? You would stand to win $200 no
>>> matter
>>>>> who might win. Of course, in the case of a draw, you would be upsticks
>>> and
>>>>> nobody hurt. But it is not always easy to make sure of "Dutching the
>>> book."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1986 _Jersey Journal_ (Jersey City) (Apr. 14) 24: So get ready to
>> dutch
>>> the
>>>>> book.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The origin? Evidently < "Dutch book" (not in OED), 'a bookmaker's
>>> inexpert
>>>>> odds that allow a bettor to profit by wagering proportionately on all
>>>>> possibilities; also fig.'
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1894 _Evansville [Ind.] Courier and Press_ (June 15) 7: Parties ...who
>>> seem
>>>>> content to be called bookmakers even if they do offer to the public
>>> what is
>>>>> commonly known in the ring as a Dutch book....[T]heir patrons get the
>>> best
>>>>> of it, as long as it lasts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1895 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Jan. 9)  10: Then Joe went after Motor
>>>>> money. What kind of a Dutch book did Joe have with Motor at 13 to 5,
>>>>> Realization at 8 to 5, and Elise at 6 to 1?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1911 _Evening World_ (N.Y.C.) (Mar. 2) (Daily Mag.):  Concentrate! The
>>>>> fellow who plays for General Results is making a Dutch book on
>> himself!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1930 _Times-Union_ (Albany, N.Y.) (JUne 8) B-5:  Obviously Shaw could
>>> not
>>>>> lay these prices under any other system for the reason that he would
>>> likely
>>>>> be making a "dutch" book.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why "Dutch" (presumably "German")?  The quest goes on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> JL
>>>>> 
>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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