[Ads-l] to "dutch"

Barretts Mail mail.barretts at GMAIL.COM
Sun Dec 27 17:44:36 EST 2020


FWIW, here are three links giving the source of inspiration as the Pennsylvania Dutch:

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/07/origin-phrase-going-dutch/ <http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/07/origin-phrase-going-dutch/>
https://www.southernliving.com/culture/going-dutch-origin <https://www.southernliving.com/culture/going-dutch-origin>
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/going-dutch/ <https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/going-dutch/>

Benjamin Barrett (he/his/him)
Formerly of Seattle, WA

> On 27 Dec 2020, at 13:43, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> 
>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dan,
>> 
>> If this was true in the 1800's, I'm persuaded.
>> 
>> Larry,
>> 
>> Most of these are first recorded long after the 17th C. herring wars.
> 
> Well, perhaps, but it seems reasonable to assume the animus remained.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com <mailto:thegonch at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I am not sure this is true. Even today, German servers normally record a
>>> separate bill for each person, even marking beers or pitchers on an
>>> individual's Deckel. It is not a big stretch to say that German beer halls
>>> in the US in the 19th century used the same practice, which was called
>>> "going Dutch".
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:44 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu <mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> But “Dutch treat" figures as part of a much larger set of slurs and
>>>> epithets denigrating the Dutch that stem from the years in which the
>>>> Britain and Holland were engaged in the “herring wars” for supremacy of
>>> the
>>>> North Sea, as itemized in Farmer & Henley, including inter alia:
>>>> 
>>>> Dutch act:  suicide
>>>> Dutch bargain:  a bargain all on one side
>>>> Dutch-clock:  a bedpan; a wife
>>>> Dutch concert/medley:  a raucous hubbub
>>>> Dutch consolation:  Job’s comfort (= “could be worse”)
>>>> Dutch courage:  pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication
>>>> Dutch fuck:  the practice of lighting one cigarette from another
>>>> Dutch milk:  beer
>>>> Dutch treat:  an outing at which one pays one’s own way
>>>> Dutch widow:  a prostitute
>>>> Dutch wife:  a bolster (on a bed)
>>>> 
>>>> —very much along the lines of:
>>>> 
>>>> Irish apricot (apple, lemon):  a potato
>>>> Irishman’s dinner:  a fast
>>>> Irish evidence:  false witness
>>>> Irish kiss:  a slap in the face
>>>> Irish promotion:  a pay-cut
>>>> Irish twins:  two siblings who are not twins but are born less than a
>>> year
>>>> apart
>>>> Irish wedding:  the emptying of a cesspool
>>>> 
>>>> LH
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM <mailto:pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I assumed that impression could have come from "German" or "Dutch"
>>>> comedians who spoke in "dialect".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Weber and Fields were active during that period.  Several examples of
>>>> their humor are available on youtube.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk <https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf of
>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 10:52:55 AM
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> It sounds like adhockery to me, since I'm unaware of any tradition that
>>>>> Germans "make themselves say what they don't mean." The Irish were
>>>>> associated with absurd blunders ("bulls"), making the nonexistent
>>> "Irish
>>>>> book" a more likely expression of that idea.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Germans were notorious instead for their accents, lager, and sausages.
>>>>> Vaudeville stereotyping was common, but no more so than for other
>>> ethnic
>>>>> groups.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Interesting find, though.
>>>>> 
>>>>> JL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:34 AM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> An early explanation of the word suggests it was "derived from the
>>> habit
>>>>>> some ignorant Germans have of making themselves say what they don't
>>>> mean,
>>>>>> and the flippant sports apply the term to a book that 'wins backward,'
>>>> or
>>>>>> stands to lose no matter which horse wons the race."
>>>>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/66134635/the-los-angeles-times/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> LA Times, October 25, 1903, page 23.
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
>>>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:33:28 AM
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Subject: to "dutch"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject:      to "dutch"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "To lay bets in such a way as to win by covering all possibilities
>>>>>> proportionately; also fig."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Not in OED.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1902 _St. Paul Globe_ (Dec. 21) 33: When the book was "Dutched," it
>>>> meant
>>>>>> that the player turned the tables on the bookie, and played every
>>> horse
>>>> in
>>>>>> the race, certain of winning on practically all. ...In the days when
>>> the
>>>>>> men in the ring had the large slates, standing up in full view, on
>>> which
>>>>>> the prices were clearly written in large figures, it was an easy
>>> matter
>>>> to
>>>>>> "Dutch" the books. [How-to details follow.]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1910 _Washington Times_ (Sept. 4) 12: The Cubs will be stronger
>>>> favorites
>>>>>> in Chicago than in Philadelphia. Fine chance to "Dutch the book."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1914 _Evening Bulletin _ (Providence, R.I.) (Sept. 11) Sec. III 9: At
>>>> the
>>>>>> beginning of the season these sporting men backed the champions at
>>>> prices
>>>>>> of 1 to 2 and 1 to 3. They are now endeavoring to lay off as a matter
>>> of
>>>>>> protection, to Dutch the book, in other words.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1916 _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ (Dec. 3) (Want Ads Section) 3: FOR
>>>> SALE -
>>>>>> ACRES AND RANCHES... A Chance to Dutch the Book...for $300 under
>>> value,
>>>>>> raise vegetables and chickens; you can't lose.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1924 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Oct. 2) (Sports) 2: One could easily
>>>> "dutch
>>>>>> the book" by betting on Washington in New York and the Giants in San
>>>>>> Francisco. On such a basis, one would wager $1000 in New York to win
>>>> $1200
>>>>>> and $1000 in San Francisco to win $1250.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1932 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (June 14) (Sports) 15: In the East you
>>>> might
>>>>>> bet $800 on Schmeling against $1000. In San Francisco you would then
>>>> wager
>>>>>> $800 on Sharkey. What would happen? You would stand to win $200 no
>>>> matter
>>>>>> who might win. Of course, in the case of a draw, you would be upsticks
>>>> and
>>>>>> nobody hurt. But it is not always easy to make sure of "Dutching the
>>>> book."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1986 _Jersey Journal_ (Jersey City) (Apr. 14) 24: So get ready to
>>> dutch
>>>> the
>>>>>> book.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The origin? Evidently < "Dutch book" (not in OED), 'a bookmaker's
>>>> inexpert
>>>>>> odds that allow a bettor to profit by wagering proportionately on all
>>>>>> possibilities; also fig.'
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1894 _Evansville [Ind.] Courier and Press_ (June 15) 7: Parties ...who
>>>> seem
>>>>>> content to be called bookmakers even if they do offer to the public
>>>> what is
>>>>>> commonly known in the ring as a Dutch book....[T]heir patrons get the
>>>> best
>>>>>> of it, as long as it lasts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1895 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Jan. 9)  10: Then Joe went after Motor
>>>>>> money. What kind of a Dutch book did Joe have with Motor at 13 to 5,
>>>>>> Realization at 8 to 5, and Elise at 6 to 1?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1911 _Evening World_ (N.Y.C.) (Mar. 2) (Daily Mag.):  Concentrate! The
>>>>>> fellow who plays for General Results is making a Dutch book on
>>> himself!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1930 _Times-Union_ (Albany, N.Y.) (JUne 8) B-5:  Obviously Shaw could
>>>> not
>>>>>> lay these prices under any other system for the reason that he would
>>>> likely
>>>>>> be making a "dutch" book.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Why "Dutch" (presumably "German")?  The quest goes on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JL


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