david_tuggy at sil.org
Wed Apr 6 02:08:07 UTC 2011
Thanks, that’s helpful, and very clear now.
One further comment: I wasn't clear in asking 'does the -ra mean "the
group associated with me by also being speakers"?' I should have said
'associated with me by being speakers/emitters of the present
communication.' I was supposing the defining characteristic of the stem
boku is (as is generally taken to be definitional for 1psg)
'speaker/emitter of the present communication'. I wouldn't have expected
just any speaker to be thereby associated with me, but anyone else
speaking the same message with me at this moment would likely be—that
would easily be taken as "a meaningful relationship." (Of course if
construed at all closely it is an uncommon relationship as well, which
is why 1ppl does not often mean 'multiple speakers'.)
On 4/5/2011 6:44 PM, Iwasaki, Shoichi wrote:
> (1) -tachi and -ra can be a plural marker.
> Gakusee-tachi = students
> Gakusee-ra = students
> (Only when the noun/pronoun is identifiable/definite animate, the associative meaning emerges)
> (2) boku-ra; boku-tachi = I and my associates (e.g. friends, family members, colleagues)
> This could also work inclusively ("I and you") just like English 'we'.
> "does the -ra mean "the group associated with me by also being speakers"?" --> I don't think so. Just by being another speaking body does not seem to qualify one as an associate. An associate must have more meaningful relationship with the speaker.
> (3) " Does tanaka-ra ever mean "the group of people all called Tanaka"?" --> No, because "Tanaka" is identifiable/definite.
> Shoichi Iwasaki
> -----Original Message-----
> From: funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of David Tuggy
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 4:11 PM
> To: funknet
> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] Associative plurals
> Thanks for the reply and the data.
> -tachi is always associative -have I got that right? Is -ra also? Does
> boku-ra ever clearly mean "I and the other speakers", i.e. does the -ra
> mean "the group associated with me by also being speakers"? Does
> tanaka-ra ever mean "the group of people all called Tanaka"?
> -David T
> On 4/4/2011 10:19 PM, Iwasaki, Shoichi wrote:
>> Lise is right about Japanese, but 'tachi' can be added to pronouns as well. And many other Asian languages can do it too.
>> Japanese =
>> boku-ra; boku-tachi (boku=I, -tachi, -ra = associative plural suffix)
>> kimi-ra; kimi-tachi (kimi=you, -tachi, -ra = associative plural suffix)
>> tanaka-ra, tanaka-tachi (tanaka = family name, ...), 'Tanaka and the gang'
>> phUak chan (phUak = group, chan = I) Me and my friends/siblings etc.
>> phUak tEE = you guys
>> phUak Aew (phUak = group, Aaw = (nick name))= Aew and her friends etc.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:funknet-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Lise Menn
>> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 8:11 PM
>> To: David Tuggy
>> Cc: funknet
>> Subject: Re: [FUNKNET] Associative plurals
>> Japanese -tachi would be an example - added only (as I understand it) to personal names, and meaning 'X and those accompanying X'. It can't be interpreted as a plural, to the best of my knowledge.
>> Lise Menn
>> On Apr 4, 2011, at 8:59 PM, David Tuggy wrote:
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