Daddies and mummies

Sat May 3 12:42:26 UTC 2008

What a wonderful blend of text and metatext (or whatever we should call it):  the milder form of language helps with the ethical actor dilemma, while the translation is very believable as both what an abusive husband (or person in general) would say, and hence what a child in that family would learn and relive both in play and later in life.  It sounds like my wish earlier that the child's voice had been a voiceover, and not what she was actually saying, is the case.
Thanks for the input on that from evreyone.  

----- Original Message ----
From: Goretty Robles Fernández <gorettyr at GMAIL.COM>
To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 3:09:03 AM
Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies

El 3 May 2008, a las 01:16, Kenneth Hyde escribió:

> One of the things that struck me, and perhaps can be confirmed by  
> Marisol and other Spanish speakers, is that the "translation" in the  
> subtitle was quite a bit stronger than the actual Spanish words.  
> The subtitles made a lot of use of "fucking" in places where the  
> Spanish had no such verbal emphasis, e.g. "inutil" was translated as  
> "fucking useless" not just "useless."
As far as I can say, after living six years in the Bay Area, the  
wording is far more loaded in the English version. The spanish script  
is "normal", those are the things I overhear in the hood (even milder)  
back in Spain. Anyhow, fortunately enough, I don't know the exact  
wording of an American disrespecting his wife. Well, on my view  
captions are stronger than the oral text.
>
>
> Ken
>
> On May 2, 2008, at 4:47 PM, del-Teso-Craviotto, Marisol Ms. wrote:
>
>> Well, as a Spaniard, I wasn't shocked by the words or the presence  
>> of the girl in the clip, so I agree that both the clip and its  
>> readings are very much culturally based. Beyond the specifics of  
>> this short film (the presence of the girl, her age, the artistic  
>> value of the film), I think we must take into account the socio- 
>> political context in which it has been produced.
>>
>> The clip was made in 2005 by "Proyectafilms", a producing firm in  
>> Spain. You have information about it in proyectafilms.com.  
>> Apparently, it was made with the "make the most out of the least"  
>> principle and has won several nominations and awards, whose  
>> international reach or quality I'm in no position to judge. It is  
>> also interesting that many feminist organizations and ongs have  
>> asked them to use the clip in their campaigns against gender  
>> violence, so at least in Spain, people seem to recognize some value  
>> in the up-front and crude representation of domestic violence as  
>> viewed from a child's perspective.
>>
>> It seems that this short film goes hand in hand with Spanish  
>> official attempts to make domestic violence visible and the target  
>> of political, police and civil discussion. The present and recently  
>> formed government in Spain (the first one with more women than men  
>> as ministers, and an eight-month pregnant woman as the minister of  
>> defense, which has caused quite an uproar among conservatives) has  
>> made equality (including of course gender equality) one of its  
>> priorities, and evidenced in the creation of a ministry of  
>> equality. So I think that it is in this context that we have to  
>> view the short film, although I understand that other readings and  
>> reactions are also possible and valid, as shown in the messages to  
>> GALA-L.
>>
>> My two Spanish cents,
>> Marisol
>>
>> ***************************************
>> Marisol del-Teso-Craviotto
>> Assistant Professor of Linguistics
>> Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
>> Miami University
>> Oxford, OH 45056
>> ________________________________________
>> From: International Gender and Language Association [GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>> ] On Behalf Of Valentina Pagliai [Valentina.Pagliai at OBERLIN.EDU]
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:02 PM
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> I am Italian, and I too do not feel I can speak for all Italians.  
>> But as a Tuscan of working class background, I can say the words  
>> used by the girl actor did not bother me. Maybe we have a different  
>> upbringing.
>> Being direct, argumentative and coming out strong is a positive  
>> thing and children are exposed to and learn to use fighting words  
>> early.
>>
>> But even in the US there are studies showing that the middle class  
>> ideal of avoiding foul language esp. in front of children are not  
>> necessarily shared by everybody.
>> Working class mothers and minorities may have different views, as  
>> in the following two articles.
>>
>> Miller, Peggy 1986.  “Teasing as Language Socialization and Verbal  
>> Play in a White Working-Class Community.”  In B Schieffelin & E.  
>> Ochs (Eds.)  Language and Socialization Across Cultures.  
>> Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.  (Pp. 51-79).
>> Eisenberg, Ann 1986.  “Teasing: Verbal Play in Two Mexicano Homes.”  
>> In B Schieffelin & E. Ochs (eds.) Language and Socialization Across  
>> Cultures. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (Pp. 199-212)
>>
>> Also, Jennifer Reynolds has done studies on Guatemalan Mayan  
>> children teasing each other and learning fighting words, and the  
>> ideologies around the definition of "children" and "children in  
>> need of protection".
>>
>> As for the movie, I completely I agree with Amy's analysis.
>>
>> For me, I found the movie kind of boring, nothing new, the usual  
>> stuff. I was hoping for some parody or turnabout at the end but it  
>> did not come. I thought it could have been done by a teenager for a  
>> classroom project. Not really a powerful filmaker.
>> But itube itself is an interesting phenomenon, to a degree  
>> empowering.
>>
>>
>> Valentina Pagliai
>> Oberlin College
>>
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 10:52 PM, Amy Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> I thought about the consequences to the young girl too and found it  
>> very troubling. The possible damage to the child actor became a  
>> preoccupation in my reaction to the film.
>> Is that preoccupation the effect the film maker was after?  I doubt  
>> it.
>>
>> It seems that there's a means justifies the end mentality in the  
>> film that makes the possible harm to the child *actor* become an  
>> issue, when it should not be.
>>
>> What is the artistry of this film?  It re-enacts real life in a  
>> *raw* way. Is there no way to give the message about the  
>> conscription of onlookers to violence to become violent themselves?  
>> Who is the audience...children?  battered women/persons?  It's not  
>> a new message either.
>>
>> So I think there's a side story here about the wisdom or aesthetics  
>> of film maker's over use of audience shock treatment to make the  
>> point.
>> Would the next step be to have the battering become a real event we  
>> all are asked to watch for the redeeming value of realizing  
>> battering is bad?
>>
>> Should horrible events be told about in an aesthetic frame?  This  
>> is a discussion that has taken place wrt if and how to  
>> contextualize and treat the Holocaust (and other horrific events)  
>> in an artistic frame,  so that they can be understood and not  
>> forgotten.
>> Amy Sheldon
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Valentina Pagliai wrote:
>>
>> Well,
>> The girl seemed to be having a lot of fun at it. And I suppose I  
>> would prefer an awareness of the existence of family violence to a  
>> girl misleaded into believing that certain things don't exist  
>> (until it happens to them). I feel that it is really cultural, for  
>> lack of a better word, the American (but not all Americans)  
>> tendency to hide stuff from children. Personally, I feel it is  
>> better to make children aware as soon as possible of sexism and  
>> oppression, so they can learn to defend themselves.
>> That's my two cents.
>>
>> Valentina Pagliai
>> Oberlin College
>>
>>
>> On May 1, 2008, at 9:04 PM, Campbell, Heather wrote:
>>
>> I must say, I agree with your concerns. Powerful film, but as an  
>> early childhood educator, I am extremely conflicted about this.  
>> There was a duty of care towards the wellbeing of the young child  
>> acting in this film, and I wonder if the possible benefits deriving  
>> from the film (that is, raising awareness of domestic violence and  
>> its effect upon children) justify the potential harm inflicted upon  
>> the child involved.
>>
>> Heather Campbell
>>
>> From: International Gender and Language Association [mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>> ] On Behalf Of Sarah Wagner
>> Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 9:45 AM
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> All I can think is, what about this young "actor" who is doing  
>> this?  What is she thinking as she says all of these horrible  
>> things?  You can't, even in an acting context, make this sound like  
>> "pretend" can you?  It's an incredible film, unbelievable (and  
>> incredibly important message of course), but I'm so conflicted  
>> about the reality of making it.
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Megan Crowhurst <mcrowhurst at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU<mailto:mcrowhurst at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU 
>> >>
>> To: GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<mailto:GALA-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>> >
>> Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 4:09:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [GALA-L] Daddies and mummies
>>
>> Well, there's a frighteningly powerful message
>> about how kids internalize and learn to reproduce
>> domestic partner abuse.  I'm forwarding this to
>> our SafePlace volunteer co-ordinator...
>>
>>
>> At 10:25 PM +0200 5/1/08, Goretty Robles Fernández wrote:
>>> I'm speechless.
>>> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/336489/papas_y_mamas_daddies_mummies/
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Megan J. Crowhurst, Ph.D.
>> Associate Professor
>>
>> Graduate Advisor, Linguistics
>> All advising email should go to megancrowhurst at gmail.com<mailto:megancrowhurst at gmail.com 
>> >
>>
>> Snail mail address:
>>
>> The University of Texas at Austin
>> Dr. Crowhurst
>> Department of Linguistics
>> 1 University Station B5100
>> Austin, TX  78712-5100
>> USA
>>
>> Phone:  512-471-1701
>> Fax:    512-471-4340
>>
>> My home page: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~crowhurs/index.html<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Ecrowhurs/index.html 
>> >
>> Department home page: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/linguistics/
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~ 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ________________________________
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