[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-A.Cameron-burning alive.

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > 
remarks in this 
> > thread about his description of the Heruls, which you also call 
> > unthrustworty:
> > 
> > > I agree, it is possible and some authors have argued that they
> > > picked up some Eastern customs to this effect. However, as
> > > Cameron states the 'burning alive' bit is not believable, and
> > > the whole practice is likely an ethnographic cliche.
> > 
> > I hope for Cameron that this argument is your own. 
> 
> 
> No it is directly from Prof. Cameron, as you will know since you 
> indicated that you read the book. 
> 
> 
> 
> Procopios did not 
> > talk about "burning alive". The man was killed by a dagger and 
> burned 
> > afterwards at a pile of wood. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cameron referes to this passage -when she writes about Procopius' 
> ethnographic cliches - in the following words ".... or how the 
Heruls 
> dispatch the sick by sending a stranger to kill them after tying 
them 
> in trees and then burning them, trees and all." (p.218f)
> 
> I don't have my copy of Procopius at hand, but I tend to believe 
that 
> Cameron,- as foremost expert of Procopius - will have read him in 
the 
> original language and that her reading is the latest interpretation 
of 
> the original text. 


   Einar; Hæ,Dirk.                                                    

 I assume that your understanding of the English language is better 
than mine. Because you live and work in London.                       

  But I do understand A.Cameron in such a way;                        

  1. The person is tied to a tree.                                    
  2. Then the stranger is sent to kill that person. 
  3. Then after that person is dead,then the body of that person and 
the tree he/she is tied to, is burned.

  That is first the person was tied to a tree,then killed and then 
the body and the tree is burned. That is that the burning part took 
place AFTER the person was dead.

It does not really make sense to first burn somebody alive and then 
send somebody to kill that person, just recently beeing burnt alive!

Anyway it is not likely that the Heruli were burning alive their old 
and sick relatives.
I guess this description is a oversimplification anyway.              
It must have been some kind of a ritual. Saying good bye to 
relatives. Showing respect to the person going to be killed etc. 
Collecting the bones after the burning etc.                

Actually it seems to me that we are talking about a suicide here. 
That old and sick people decided that dying was for the best interest 
of the tribe.
Some kind of a tribal custom. A custom that involved others as 
helpers and obviously as participants in this ritual.
Anyway such tribal customs should be analyzed and interpreted by 
anthropologists,not historians. Seems to me at least.

I do not believe that when some of the Heruli was old and sick,then 
just of a sudden the other Heruli tied up that person and burned it 
alive!!

Bless,bless, Einar.


> > Actually old and sick people sometimes 
> > commit suicide - and sometimes they get help against the law - 
even 
> > in our modern societies. There is nothing improbable in this 
> > description from Procopius and as Bertil and Einar have 
demonstrated 
> > they were usual in old Scandinavian literature and myths.
> > 
> > I have once seen the unholy mating being explained with 
> homosexuality 
> > among the mercenaries. Besides the rumour about the asses, which 
> > character must have been very obvious to everybody, I do not see 
> > unusual examples as the people Procopius described were regarded 
as 
> > traitors. It is not surprising that he choosed the worst examples.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, that maybe your opinion. If you read Cameron carefully, you 
will 
> find that she interprets this very differently. I go with her 
> interpretation.
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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