[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-A.Cameron-burning alive.

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> remarks in this 
> > > thread about his description of the Heruls, which you also call 
> > > unthrustworty:
> > > 
> > > > I agree, it is possible and some authors have argued that they
> > > > picked up some Eastern customs to this effect. However, as
> > > > Cameron states the 'burning alive' bit is not believable, and
> > > > the whole practice is likely an ethnographic cliche.
> > > 
> > > I hope for Cameron that this argument is your own. 
> > 
> > 
> > No it is directly from Prof. Cameron, as you will know since you 
> > indicated that you read the book. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Procopios did not 
> > > talk about "burning alive". The man was killed by a dagger and 
> > burned 
> > > afterwards at a pile of wood. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Cameron referes to this passage -when she writes about Procopius' 
> > ethnographic cliches - in the following words ".... or how the 
> Heruls 
> > dispatch the sick by sending a stranger to kill them after tying 
> them 
> > in trees and then burning them, trees and all." (p.218f)
> > 
> > I don't have my copy of Procopius at hand, but I tend to believe 
> that 
> > Cameron,- as foremost expert of Procopius - will have read him in 
> the 
> > original language and that her reading is the latest 
interpretation 
> of 
> > the original text. 
> 
> 
>    Einar; Hæ,Dirk.                                                   
 
> 
>  I assume that your understanding of the English language is better 
> than mine. Because you live and work in London.                      
 
> 
>   But I do understand A.Cameron in such a way;                       
 
> 
>   1. The person is tied to a tree.                                   
 
>   2. Then the stranger is sent to kill that person. 
>   3. Then after that person is dead,then the body of that person and 
> the tree he/she is tied to, is burned.
> 
>   That is first the person was tied to a tree,then killed and then 
> the body and the tree is burned. That is that the burning part took 
> place AFTER the person was dead.


Hi again Einar,

that would be my interpretation as well. If I said 'burning alive' 
earlier, I was likely wrong. However, at least Cameron does not seem 
to read the passage as involving a funery pyre, as suggested by 
others. Her reading of the Greek text seems to be that the relatives 
of a sick or old Herul would have called a stranger to tie this person 
to a tree, kill him or her and then burn the tree together with the 
body.  What is absolutely clear is that Cameron regards this not as a 
'real' custom, but as an ethnographic cliche that Procopius reported.  
Other interpretations maybe possible, but reading and interpreting 
Procopius seems to be so difficult that I leave it to the experts.


cheers,
Dirk



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