[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

Fri Feb 2 15:45:31 UTC 2001

On 2 Feb 2001, at 11:59, dirk at smra.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > > While, Procopius is a notoriously unreliable informant

Hello Dirk,
the whole problem we have begins with this statement. Like all our 
sources, Procopius must be read with care and precaution, but I 
would not dare to call him "notoriously unreliable" and I have been 
working on him for two decades. He was in comparison to other 
sources we have from the sixth century a very well educated and 
well-informed Byzantine official and for a great part of his narration 
in "Anekdota", "Hyper ton polemon" and "Peri ktismaton" an eye-
witness, although sometimes strongly biased. We cannot expect 
him to have our geographical and ethnographical knowledge and we 
must sift his evidence, as always, with care.   
> 
> 
> I took this argument from Goffart who argues that Skandza was 
> important for Jordanes in order to exclude Britain, which, as Goffart
> writes, was believed by many at this time to be the origin of the
> Goths. 

Walter Goffart indeed writes that in the "Narrators of Barbarian 
History, p.89. But poor Walter completely misunderstood 
Jordanes, Getica, 38. This is part of a long geographical and 
ethnographical digression about Scythia. For your understanding I 
cite the passage in context, beginning in Getica 37: Hunuguri 
autem hinc sunt noti, quia ab ipsis pellium murinarium venit 
commercium: quoa tantorum virorum formidavit audacia. quorum 
mansione prima in Scythia solo iuxtam paludem Meotidem, 
secundo in Mysiam Thraciamque et Daciam, tertio supra mare 
Ponticum rursus in Scythia legimus habitase: nec eorum fabulas 
alicubi repperimus scriptas, qui eos dicunt in Brittania vel in 
unaqualibet insularum in servitute redactos et in unius caballi 
praetio a quodam ereptos. aut certe si quis eos aliter dixerit in 
nostro urbe, quam quod nos diximus, fuisse exortos, nobis aliquid 
obstrepebit: nos enim potius lectioni credimus quam fabulis 
anilibus consentimus.
If you read that, you will easily find that the people concerned are 
not the Goths, but the Onogurs, that it is not Britain, but "Britain or 
any other island, which we do not know", and that it is not "an 
opinion hold by many", but "fabulas alicubi scriptas" "fairy tales 
written somewhere". Because this is not the only error in Walter´s 
treatment of barbarian narrators, but a typical one, I am sceptical of 
the whole book, like most people who work with these sources 
professionally.  
> 
> 
> 
> And where did you find the funny 
> > idea that Procopius proposed to return all barbarians to their
> > homelands? 
> 
> 
> 
> This view is presented by Avaril Cameron and to some extent by 
> Goffart. A short formulation of this argument can be found on the
> European Archaeology List were a historian (Florin Curta) presents the
> same point much nicer than I could.
> 
My dear friend Florin is an primarily an archeologist, and a very 
good one. As I take part in the discussions on the European 
Archeology list, I know his arguments, but in his critique of 
Procopius he goes too far. This aim of exporting barbarians to the 
end of the world is not at all presented by Averil Cameron, it is 
given by Walter Goffart, Narrators, p.96, in his comparison between 
Jordanes and Procopius and he is in this respect as wrong as in 
the one I treated above. If you will read Averil Cameron´s book, you 
will find that she is very critical of Goffart´s view of Procopius. I cite 
Cameron, Procopius, p.205: "Goffart needs, for his own argument, 
to discredit the evidence of Procopius, but this is not the way to do 
it. For just as Procopius' excursus and 'origins' sections are not at 
all good, so certainly they are not all bad. the Gothic Wars, as 
much as any other part of Procopius' work, shows that a close 
analysis of the structure of individual sections, without prejudice 
overall, is the only way to arrive at any fair estimation of the 
credibility of his evidence."  
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> Completely true, possibly both Goffart and Cameron got it wrong - who
> knows. However, their textual analysis does sound convincing and most
> of their interpretations are more plausible that those presented by
> people who want to read Procopius and the like as historical text
> books.
> 
I suggest you read Averil Cameron by herself and not by the 
footnotes in Goffart´s book or - worse - by Florin´s interpretation. 
Then you will find that her view on Procopius is not at all Goffart´s 
and that it is identical with mine. I cite Cameron, Procopius, p.222:
"Above all, Procopius' views were his own. His greatest strength is 
in his personal observation and the collection of contemporary 
material for a subject into which he was deeply involved, not in the 
historical or ethnographical excursuses, where his approach is 
often anecdotical and impressionistic. Procopius was 
extraordinarily energetic and determined in the pursuit of interesting 
and useful information, but he was not a scholar. He was a 
practical man, curious for detail and keen to work it over with his 
own highly idiosyncratic imagination." 
And p.241: "Nevertheless the energy and passion of the Wars and 
the Secret History would be remarkable at any date. They have 
established Procopius as an independent, if prejudiced, observer, 
but above all as a keen, efficient and voluminous reporter. On these 
qualities, especially, his reputation rests."

Regards
         Andreas Schwarcz

Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
Universität Wien
Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
A-1010 Wien
Österreich
Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
Fax 0043/142-77/92-72

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