[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

Hej Tore

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> The common opinion is that the Heruls probably lived somewhere in 
southern
> Denmark - Northern Germany 

Which source does this common opinion use? Do you talk about Western 
Heruls?

> (I can't find that Procopius claims that they
> originated from Thule) 

He did not - and he did not claim Southern Denmark or Northern 
Germany. Maybe Jordanes claimed Scania or Sealand.

> and when the Goths moved from the Vistula area to
> the Black Sea area the Heruls followed in their steps. After that 
various
> Roman sources tell about the Heruls together with or dominated by 
the Goths.
> The Heruls as well as part of the Goths (Ostrogoths) were subdued 
by the
> Huns. When Attila died on his wedding night and the Hun empire 
dissolved
> the Heruls formed their own kingdom in present day Hungary. When 
they we
> beaten by the Lombards about 505 Prokopius says that part of the 
tribe
> moved to where they had heard there were good lands, Ultima Thule, 
the
> farthest away lands known from the Roman Empire. (Iceland and 
Greenland
> were not inhabited at that time.)

I think we agree in the excerpt from your book below, if the headline 
is the title of your book and not a result proved by the following 
description. 

Troels



> Origin of Svear:
> "The Heruls (jarlarna) was a Scandinavian people that together with 
Gutans
> or the Goths, as the Romans called them, ravaged the Black Sea, 
Asia Minor
> and the Mediterranean from the 4th century. After having been 
subdued first
> by the Goths and later by the Huns, those emigrated Heruls, middle 
of the
> 5th, century founded a state in upper Hungary. There are several 
stories
> how the Heruls ravaged the coasts of the Black Sea and the 
Mediterranean,
> alone and together with the Goths, why they must be considered as 
good
> seamen. They were sought after soldiers in the Roman Imperial 
Guards.
> According to Roman sources they were a more primitive people than 
other
> Germanic peoples. The troops of Odovakar that assumed power in the 
Western
> Empire in 476 contained, according to sources, to a large extent 
Heruls.
> That state was, however, soon overrun by the Ostrogoths.
> Prokopios says (See note 2) that some years later the Herul state 
in upper
> Hungary was smashed. He thinks of the Heruls, that had emigrated to 
the
> south of Russia and to start with had been under the Ostrogoths and 
the
> Huns but after the fall of the Hun Empire had erected an 
independent state
> on the north side of the Danube on the border of present time 
Mähren and
> Hungary. About the year 505, after quarrelling with the Lombards, 
they were
> forced to leave this area. Some of the Heruls settled in Illyria 
under the
> protection of the Eastroman Emperor, but others could not, says 
Prokopios,
> decide to cross the Danube but settled in the furthest parts of the
> inhabited world. They returned to Thule (the Scandinavian penin-
sula) and
> settled next to the Gauts at the same time as a powerful Svea state 
with
> strong kings emerged in the Lake Mälar Area.
> Guided by numerous members of its royalty they passed all the 
native lands
> of the Slavic peoples (probably from lower Danube to upper Vistula 
and
> further west), marched from here through a large part of vacant 
land and
> came to a people called the Varner. From there they came to the sea,
> crossed the sea and went to the island Thule where they settled.
> Thule is a very large island, Prokopios continues, over ten times 
as large
> as Britannia. The largest part is desolate, but in the inhabited 
parts
> there are thirteen populous tribes, who each has a king. One 
populous tribe
> was the Gauts and it was next to them that the Herulic newcomers 
settled.
> Much later - guesses are both at the end of the 520s and the middle 
of the
> 540s - it happened that the king of those Heruls remaining in the 
south was
> killed and that these Heruls in order to get a new king of the old 
line
> sent messengers to the part of the tribe that lived in Thule. Here 
they
> found many of royal blood and chose the one they liked most. During 
the
> journey south, however, he fell ill and died in the lands of the 
Danes. In
> order not to return empty handed the messengers were forced once 
more to go
> to Thule. By this action they became so much delayed that their 
principals
> gave up hope and were persuaded by Emperor Justinianus to take as 
their
> king a young Herul educated in Constantinople. When finally the 
messengers
> from Thule returned with their proposed king, the imperial
protégé 
was
> deserted in favour of the newcomer."
> 
> Note 2 (page 14)
> Prokopios, who was born at the end of the 5th century, was a lawyer 
in
> Constantinople and from the year 527 private secretary to the 
military
> commander Belisarius on his campaigns against inter alia the 
Ostrogoths in
> Italy. He says that there are 13 populous tribes in Thule (the 
Scandinavian
> peninsula), each with its own king. He says: "A populous tribe 
among them
> was the gautoi, next to where the arriving Heruls settled". 
Prokopios says
> that the Heruls who lived in northern Hungary under Cæsar 
Anastasius'
> (491-518) rule attacked the Lombards. However, they were beaten and 
their
> king was killed. The Heruls were therefore (about 505) forced to 
leave
> their homesteads. Some of them crossed the Danube into Roman 
territory,
> where Anastasius allowed them to settle. The remaining part of the 
Heruls
> moved northwards. Through the countries of the Varner and Danes they
> reached the ocean, over which they sailed to Thule.
> In the same chapter, Prokopios  gives a short mention of the Heruls 
that
> had immigrated to the Scandinavian peninsula. This is, by the way,  
the
> last historical mentioning about Scandinavia by a Greek-Roman 
writer. "Thus
> the Heruls, that lived on Roman soil and had slained their king, 
sent some
> of their most distinguished men to the island Thule in order to 
find and if
> possible bring back a man of royal blood. When they came to the 
island they
> found many of royal blood." According to professor Wessén: "The 
flourishing
> and numerically strong royal family in Thule, that is mentioned 
above, is
> apparently the same under whose guidance part of the Eastherulian 
tribe,
> thirty years earlier, had undertaken its march to Scandinavia."
> 
> 
> >Dirk!
> >
> >--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> >>
> >> (snip)
> >>
> >> Similarly, Procopius'- most likely invented - story of a Herulic
> >> migration to Thule belongs to the same category, as A. Cameron
> >> (Procopius and the Sixth Century) shows. Britain, Thule and 
Scandza
> >> were the islands in the Northern Ocean were all northern 
barbarians
> >> came from according to the Roman mental map and where all
> >barbarians
> >> should return to according to Procopius.
> >
> >Where did Procopius claim the Heruls originally came from
> >Thule/Scandinavia? As far as I know he only wrote their ancestral
> >homes were beyond the Ister (Danube). If a Scandinavian origin was
> >his point, why didn't he write it? Actually the Illyrian Heruls who
> >didn't serve Justinian escaped to the Gepides in Dacia beyond the
> >Ister just before Procopius finished his "Gothic Wars". Therefore 
the
> >claimed purpose was fulfilled without a lie about Thule.
> >
> >If the migration to Thule was a lie, why did he tell about a 
Herulian
> >king Datius returning from Thule to Illyria a few years before he
> >wrote his book? Wasn't it a little risky? As far as I can see he
> >would in this case loose all his credibility if someone knew the
> >Herulian mercenaries - which most of the army did.
> >
> >Some Scandinavian historians even regard a Herulian origin in
> >Scandinavia as a misreading of Jordanes. I can't say if this 
argument
> >has any value.
> >
> >Troels
> >
> >
> >
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