[gothic-l] Re: gothic traces in the east?

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Dear Francisc,
thank you very very much for all the information!

I am especially struck by the wide geographic range of the word.
It leads one to think that people must have travelled quite a lot
during these centuries. I have also seen the word used in an old
(15th century) German text. But I do not remember in what volume
it was, and what I remember is only something like "Ich bin kein
welscher" or some such expression of mistrust. I also have the
impression that attitudes that were linked to the use of this word
can explain some of the traditional difficulties for example
in the German/French border regions.

German: Welsch =adjective ="aus Welschland".
Dutch: Waals (adj), for example Waals Vlaanderen = the French
speaking part of Flanders. Wallonië = the southern part of
Belgium (the French part).
Old Norse: Valir m.pl. =inhabitant of Northern France.
Valland n. =Northwestern France.
velska f.=the language of Northern France ( velsk mål).
valskr adj. ="which is from Northern France".

I find it especially interesting to see that there are so many
forms of this word documented in Old Norse (4 forms):
valskr maðr, valskt mál (=völskumál), völsk tunga, völsk míla,
valskr hjalmr, völsk mús (= a rat).
Þar við Furzuborg koma leiðir saman þeirra manna er fara of
Mundiofjall suðr, Frakkar, Flæmingjar, Valir, Englar, Saxar,
Norðmenn. -- Hin fegrstu hljóð er syngja Valir ok Bretar.
Is it possible from these forms to *reconstruct older
Norse forms, or perhaps to give an estimate of the period
in which the term first became used in Norse?
A reasonable guess would be that it has something to do
with early contacts with the Franks. (or Flanders/Friesland)
The fact that the word "wielisc" was also applied to people from
Wales in Old English, may indicate that the word came with
the Saxons to England.

But the word is absent from Gothic, or what do you say?

Best regards,
Keth


Hi, Keth
>
>The Slavic term is of Germanic origin.
>The old Germanic term, *walha-, was applied initially to the Celts (it
>was the Germanic variant of Volcae, a Celtic tribe name, that was
>generalised later to all the Celts). Then, when the Celtic territories
>became parts of the Roman Empire, that term was used by the old
>Germans also for Romans. Later, it was applied by different Germanic
>peoples to their direct Celtic or Romanic neighbors.
>Examples:
>OHG walh(a) "Roman", derived adjective walhisc "Romanic, Romance"
>OHG walhisc became in modern German Welsch, meaning Italian or French
>(derogatory), and also an incoprehensible language, as in
>"Kauderwelsch"
>Dutch-Flemish: Waals "Walon" (the direct Romanic neighbors of the
>Flemish)
>O. English wealh-, derived adjective wealhisc, that became in Modern
>English Wales, Welsh, referring to the direct Celtic neighbors of the
>English.
>Old Norse Valir "Celtic, Roman"
>The old Germanic word was borrowed in old Slavic: *walha- > *volhu
>In the Slavic languages, the term was referring initially to the
>Romans, later to the direct Romanic neighbors of different Slavic
>peoples, namely to Romanians or Italians:
>Serb, Bulgarian: vlach or vlah "Romanian" (Plural: vlasi)
>Slovenian: lah "Italian"
>Polish: wloch "Italian", Wlochy "Italy"
>Russish & Ukrainian (now obsolete): voloh "Romanian"
>The name of the Romanian province of Valahia (or Walahia) is a
>combination of the South-Slavic term (vlah) and the East-Slavic term
>(voloh).
>>From a South-Slavic language, the word was borrowed in Hungarian.
>The singular form, vlah, became olah "Romanian" (now derogatory)
>The plural form, vlasi, became olasz "Italian" (the only term for
>"Italian" in Hungarian, whence also Olaszorszag "Italy", literally
>"Italian land")
>>From Slavic, the word entered also some oriental languages:
>Arabic walak "Romanian" (obsolete)
>Turkish iflak "Romanian" (obsolete)
>The South-Slavic variant "vlach" is used today by the Greeks and by
>the Slavic-speaking Macedonians to denominate the South-Danubian
>Romanians (Macedo-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians).
>
>I hope that you will be content with this information.
>Anyway, it's all I know.
>
>Francisc
>
>--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
>>
>> I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
>> But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
>> to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
>> (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
>> Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
>>
>> Hope you can elucidate some of this.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Keth
>
>
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