[gothic-l] Re: Hachmann

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
> 
> Hachmann writes in p.116 "...Sieht man von ganz unsicheren 
Nachrichten
> ab, die auf Pytheas von Massilia zurückgehen, so war Strabo der 
erste,
> der die Goten als *Goutones in der ferneren Nachbarschaft der
> Markomannen kannte. Plinius zählte sie als Gutones den Vandiliern 
zu,
> der ersten seiner fünf Gruppen germanischer Stämme, nahm demnach an, 
sie
> siedelten im östlichen  Mitteleuropa.
> 
>  your commentary p. 136:
>  "Mehr ist aus dieser Stelle gewiss nicht zu entnehmen und daher 
> muss sie ausser Betracht gelassed werden... Strabo ist offenbar der 
> erste antike Geograph der die Goten kannte."
> 
> From this I admit that Hachmann himself is not convinced but still
> Plinius refers to Pytheas. The location of the Goths also differs
> between Hachmanns interpretation and Plinius who does not give an 
exact
> location but easter Middle-Europe and connected in some way with the
> Vandals. About Strabo Hachmann says he is the first geographer that
> evidently (meaning=sure) knew about the Goths living as a little 
distant
> neighbours to the Markomanni and that far I agree, since Pytheas is 
by
> no means sure. Still Hachmann  must presuppose the Goths were in
> location as latest 100 BC which opens for Pytheas information.
> 
> The possibility accordingly still remains Pytheas/Plinius may be 
correct
> even if it of course not is proven. Hachmann is a very cautiuos 
person
> making firm statements but evidently the connection to Vandili has 
given
> Hachmann the impetus to look at the Masovian group even if Plinius 
gives
> no direct geographic information.
> 
> Kindly
> Ingemar


Hi Ingemar,

I am glad we could clarify this. Hachmann, is in no uncertain terms 
arguing that the Pytheas/Plinius quote cannot be used as an early 
reference to the Goths and that Strabo who said that the Goths lived 
behind the Marcomanni is the first to have refered them. If Hachmann 
had argued that there were Goths in the 4th century BC this would have 
contradicted other findings, like the statement that the Goths most 
likely constituted themselves as a tribe in around 100BC as the 
bearers of the Willenberg culture. 

In general, a reference to a Germanic tribe in the 4th century would 
be very anormalous given that ancient references to Germanic people 
started only in the first century BC. And that only from the time of 
Caesar had classical authors enough information about these regions to 
 notice a linguistic difference between Celts and Germans. 

cheers,

Dirk




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