[gothic-l] Re: Hachmann and Pytheas

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

> I think we now can conclude that the information of Plinius 
regarding
> Pytheas must be regarded as very dubious at least, but I dare not at
> present say too much about the reliability of Apollonius either. 
Even if
> Plinius is misleading there is in any case a good possibility the 
Goths
> might have arrived at that time from Gotland. Gotlandic cemetaries 
are
> forsaked at about 350-300 BC and  there are also other indications 
of
> emigration. Gutenbrunners   proposal with amber-trade is still 
reliable.
> Also the Swedish mainland have a lack of finds during this period 
and
> on, and  deserted habitations, specially in Östergötland and Tjust.


Hello Ingemar,

Hachmann and others showed that there was a large internal 
Scandinavian colonisation goining on during these times, with people 
starting to move inlands and northwards. Hachmann also  points to the 
many pitfalls in establishing whether or not an area was emptied by 
migration or whether a change in burial practice simply led to a 
reduction in traceable burial sites, thus just creating the false 
impression of a migration.





> Burial customs  are similar in Sweden and  certain parts of the 
Vistula
> area in this period indicating Scandinavian immigrants   living 
close to
> neighbouring continental  folks. 


Or maybe continental immigrants living close to Scandinavian folks;-)  
Prof. Ettel, who is excavating the Muehlen Eichsen cemetary in Western 
Mecklenburg, which is one of the largest cemetaries in Northern Europe 
and which dates from 600BC to 100AD wrote that the burial practice of 
Muehlen-Eichsen closely resembled this of later cemetaries in 
neighbouring Pomerania and east of the Vistula. But he does not 
conclude that these people must have migrated to these areas.








>Hachmann himself says the Goths 
must
> have been present at least 100 BC to be known  by Strabo et c. 
Bremers
> suggestion shows the range of the supposed Gothic area which 
specially
> Schwarz proposes. I agree that Goths might have lived in Holstein as
> well as part of the Jutlandic area, which definitely  was inhabited 
by a
> Gothic folk- the Jutes (Ýtas).


The proposition that the Goths could have originally settled in 
Holstein is -I think- based on the dubious Pytheas quote, which seems 
to be mentioning the Goths (guionibus or so) at the North Sea. In a 
sense, rejecting the Pytheas quote, which seems to be the right thing 
to do also casts doubt on the Gothic origin from Holstein. 

On what basis can you say that the Jutes were a 'Gothic folk'. 
Linguistically, they were North (or North-West) Germanic. Also, I am 
not aware that they shared any particular common cultural traits with 
East Germanic peoples, from which they were also quite far removed.

cheers,

Dirk 




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