[gothic-l] Re: Old Nordic, Gothic and Old Gutnish

[thomas.gahm at TELIA.COM]

Hello from a new listmember,

I would just like to present myself and comment on the discussion 
about the relationship between Gutnish and Gothic. This seem to be a 
great forum for these kind of questions and since I myself am from 
Gotland/Gutland and as I study Gutnish this is of special interest to 
me. So if I could be of any help that would please me.

The language has been called many different names: 
Gutlandic/Gotlandic, Guthnic, Gutnish in English. The name Gutnish is 
the one mostly used by linguists. The Gutnish name we use is 
´Gutnisca/Gutniska´ and in Swedish it is also known as ´gutniska´, 
but also ´gotländska´, ´gutamål´ etc. Since Gotland isn´t that large 
I understand that the knowledge about Gutnish and even the existence 
of such a language is quite small outside the borders of this island. 
It´s OK! The language is small. So it is understandable that it 
becomes thrilling for people to hear that there might still exist a 
Gothic language on the island of Gotland as indicated by some other 
listmembers. I myself would also be thrilled if it was possible to 
prove, with the help of comparative linguistics, that the Goths once 
emigrated from Gotland. 

Unfortunately, Gutnish is not closer to Gothic than it is to the 
other scandinavian languages. Neither do I believe that that is what 
has been stated by some linguist. What has been said is that among 
the scandinavian languages, Gutnish is the language that seems to be 
the closest to Gothic. That the Gutnish language spoken on Gotland 
during the late Viking-ages and during the Middle-ages would belong 
to another lingustic group than the Nordic or Scandinavian can 
clearly be ruled out by studying runic stones and the Gutnish Law and 
Saga (Guta Lagh). You do not have to be a linguist to do such a 
survey. That does not mean that Gutnish does not have features that 
are common with Gothic. They are related, as are German, English, 
Danish, Swedish, Faroese among others. You know that of course, since 
that is what you have discussed and that is also what Francisc has 
shown.

There is also a gutnish runic calendar from 1328 that could be found 
at http://nenna.yoll.net. The site is not complete, some chapters are 
missing but most of the calendar is there and what you see is a 
transcription from runes to the latin script. The language in the 
calendar is about the same as in the law, only smaller differences 
exists. That is the language that was spoken on Gotland in the 13th 
century. Older forms of Gutnish are to be found in runic inscriptions 
from the Viking-ages (there are also younger runic writings from the 
middle-ages and the latest in the 16th century). The language in the 
Viking age inscriptions is about the same as those in the law only 
showing some more archaic features (nordic; not Gothic, 
unfortunately) like for ex.´hiar´ (eng.here) instead of ´hier´, ´auk´ 
(eng=and,gothic=jah) instead of ´ok/oc´. 

There are some very early runic writings from Gotland that are from 
the first centuries AD. I do not know very much about them but they 
are of course more interesting than the language from the Middle-
ages. Unfortunately these inscriptions are very short, I think it´s 
only one word and a carving of the runic ´fuþark´ or something like 
that. You have probably discussed it before and I guess that some of 
you have knowledge about this information. If someone is interested I 
can look it up and supply the information about these early writings.

The linguists that has mentioned the lingustic similarity between 
Gutnish and Gothic has in my view only indicated that there could be 
elements or smaller parts of Gothic in Gutnish that could be either 
unique to Gutnish or shared by the other nordic languages but be more 
usual in Gutnish. Elias Wessén has mentioned that the word ´lamb´ in 
Gutnish has the meaning of both the male and female sheep as it is in 
Gothic. Then it is of course the name of Gotland (Gutland, Gutlandi, 
Gutlands etc.) and the name of the inhabitants; ´Guti´, ´Gutar´, 
´gutum´ etc., and when something is gutnish; ´gutnisca´, 
´gutniscar´´gutniscr´, ´gutniscu´, ´guta´, ´gutna´ etc. If Elias 
Wessén had more facts I don´t know.  

Gutnish is clearly Scandinavian (east-scandinavian) but it shows some 
very archaic features that are proto-germanic and that has been 
changed in the other scandinavian languages (see what Francisc 
wrote). Although that is the case, I believe that there is a 
possibility to find some elements of Gothic in Gutnish. Perhaps one 
should look at placenames that are very old in Gotland. Runic 
inscriptions could also hide some word or some inflection that could 
indicate a Gothic connection. Though if we speak of evidence then you 
will have to look in some other place than the language. At best, we 
can only hope to find some small piece of a possible earlier Gothic 
language in Gutnish. If you want to study the common Scandinavian 
language or even Proto-Germanic (or Gothic)you will in Gutnish find 
some interesting words to compare with. If we are searching for a 
Gothic-Gutnish connection I think we will do better with archeology 
and modern genetics.

So, I would say that Francisc has provided with some good and 
interesting information about the lingustic connection between Gothic 
and Gutnish as have other members. 

Sincerely, 
Tomas Gahm

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hi Francisc,
> Thank you very much for a very interesting contribution!
> (and I apologize for misspelling your name yesterday)
> 
> 
> >INNOVATIONS FOUND IN:                   NUMBER         PERCENT
> >Gutnish & Gothic only                      1             6.25%
> >Gutnish only                               4            25.00%
> >Gutnish & Scandinavic, not in Gothic      10            62.50%
> >Gutnish & Scandinavic & Gothic             1             6.25%
> >TOTAL                                     16           100.00%
> >
> >FINAL CONCLUSION:
> >Taking into account these facts, the view that Gutnish is more 
Gothic
> >than Scandinavic seems to be not sustainable.
> 
> I tried to represent these data graphically, in the shape of a Venn
> diagram, in ordr to get a complete overview. But of course, you du 
get
> a view of how Gutnic interfaces with both Scandinavian and Gothic 
here,
> and so you do obtain a picture of the relative overlap.
> The two numbers to compare are then
> 1: shared innovations between Gu. & Go. but excluding the shared
>    innovations between Gu. & Go. & Sc. This number is 6.25% 
according to
>    your above table.
> 2: shared innovations between Gu. & Sc. but excluding the shared
>    innovations between Gu. & Go. & Sc. This number is 62.5% 
according to
>    your above table.
> 
> The conclusion is (interface ratio) that Gutnic is 10 times closer
> to Scandinavian than it is to Gothic.
> 
> Here is a table of possible ascii abbreviations for the 8 distinct
> parts of the Venn-diagram: (just to facilitate communication)
> 
> #1: Gu. & Go. & Sc.
> #2: Gu. & Go. minus #1.
> #3: Gu. & Sc. minus #1.
> #4: Sc. & Go. minus #1.
> #5: Gu. minus (#1 & #2 & #3).
> #6: Sc. minus (#1 & #3 & #4).
> #7: Go. minus (#1 & #2 & #4).
> #8: All innovations in all the worlds languages
>     that are neither in Gu. nor in Sc. nor in Go.
> 
> (#8 only included for logic completeness)
> 
> For other listmembers: If this sounds difficult, then that is
> only because you don't gave an accompanying figure.
> Try to draw a figure, then it will be clear.
> 
> The percentages you have found all relate to No.'s  2, 5, 3 and 1
> (in that order), as 6.25%, 25%, 62.5% and 6.25%.
> 
> The ones I miss are No.'s 4, 6 and 7.
> That is: Comm. innov. betw. Sc. & Go. but not in Gu.
>          Innov. in Sc. not in Go. or Gu.
>          Innov. in Go. not in Gu. or Sc.
> 
> With these additional data it should be possible to position
> the 3 languages relative to one another in a two-dimensional 
diagram.
> But I realize that it would probably be a lot of extra work for
> you to find the additonal numbers.
> 
> Best regards
> Keth


You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/