[gothic-l] Re: Hachmann and Pytheas

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., ingemar.nordgren at e... wrote:
> 
> Dirk wrote: 
> > The proposition that the Goths could have originally settled in 
> > Holstein is -I think- based on the dubious Pytheas quote, which 
> seems 
> > to be mentioning the Goths (guionibus or so) at the North Sea. In 
a 
> > sense, rejecting the Pytheas quote, which seems to be the right 
> thing 
> > to do also casts doubt on the Gothic origin from Holstein. 
> > 
> > On what basis can you say that the Jutes were a 'Gothic folk'. 
> > Linguistically, they were North (or North-West) Germanic. Also, I 
am 
> > not aware that they shared any particular common cultural traits 
> with 
> > East Germanic peoples, from which they were also quite far 
removed.
> 



Hello Ingemar,

 
> The Jutes, originally the Ýtas, have the same meaning as Gauts,Gutar 
> and Goths - the outpoured/die Ausgegißenen and Jutland north of the 
> Olgerdige and the Scandinavian peninsula have since old been within 
> the same cultural sphere. 


I thought that not even the meaning 'the outpoured' for Goths is 
secured. Could it not be that the Jutes, I think they are also called 
Eutes or similar, derived their name from the same god Gaut, which was 
 important for many Germanic people, which does not mean that they 
form a common ethnic group. For example, in the Roman Empire there 
were once many different cults. For a time the Egyptian Isis cult was 
highly popular, that the Mitras cult had many followers not to speak 
of the Christian cult. However, that does not mean that Romans who 
worshipped Isis were an 'Egyptian-folk', as you suggested that the 
Jutes were a 'Gothic-folk'. 




The Goths/Gauts religious ideas originated 
> in this region  and all peoples who claim origin from Gaut are 
> connected, or claim to be connected, with the Scandinavian area, 
which 
> includes Jutland. Understand the East Germanic language is not the 
> important mark of ethnicity. 


If I understand you correctly, then a common cult is enough to 
establish common ethnicity, which I am not at all convinced is 
justifiable.




I see several Gothic folks but one of 
> them continued to mantain a language  more close to protogermanic 
but 
> the others were affected by the first soundshift. What gives them 
> their common ethnicity is, according to my investigation, the 
> religious origin.If people in Holstein were influenced from Jutland 
it 
> is no great wonder because Holstein was later part of Denmark,


... and Bornholm was once governed by Germany. Note there has never 
been a Danish population in Holstein as there has never been a German 
population on Bornholm. These are political border-shifts of the 
middle ages, which have no bearing on ethnic affiliations in the Iron 
age.


 and 
> still earlier also  part of  Anglo-Saxon culture, until late times.


Well Schleswig-Holstein was according to Ptolemy the original 
settlement area of the Saxons and Saxon tribes including the Angels.


 
> Lucky enough we also have some Cimbri later on that have Celtic 
> influences which might please you. 

I am not sure what you mean here. There are great difficulties with 
the mentioning of Cimbri on the Jutland peninsula. Ancient authors 
often saw a need to fill in gaps with what was perceived to be common 
knowledge. Pohl discusses this problem at length in 'Die Germanen'.




Besides Jutland was called 
Gotland 
> in the times of Alfred the Great.
 

What was the exact name used in the time of Alfred the Great for 
Jutland? BTW, do you know when the name Gotland is first attested in 
ancient sources?

cheers,
Dirk




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