[gothic-l] Re: Illerup objects with runes.

[malmqvist52 at YAHOO.SE]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> Esteemed listmembers,
> 
> This little outburst is based on a misunderstanding.
> At the time of the Gothic migrations national state
> formation had not taken place neither in Sweden nor in Norway.
> A Swedish kingdom did not exist until the 12th century. 
> Some researchers even claim that the "cradle" was in Vaestergoetland
> and Oestergoetland, not in the Lake Maelaren area.
> 
> Ingemar is using the correct terms namely southern
> Scandinavia with variations and it would, in my opinion,
> not be correct to write about the island of Gotland
> as "Sweden" or "Swedish". 
> 
> As Scanian there is not the slightest intention in my mind
> to glorify a Swedish centralized state, whose influence is
> waning anyway in a century of globalization and
> regionalization. The southern part of the Scandinavian
> peninsula (comprising portions of the present national states of
> Sweden and Norway) according to one leading Swedish
> historian, Joergen Weibull, is in the sources covering
> the first five centuries AD described as a land of a
> great number of peoples/tribes, each under its own
> chieftain or king.
> 
> The discussion is centered on the geography of the early
> Goths, not their "nationality" in modern terms.
> 
> Also it can be added that the position of the Swedish capital
> of Stockholm is related to the old Swedish-Finnish realm
> and governor generalships of for instance Estonia, Livonia
> and Pomerania, when it had a central position. These days the 
position
> of the capital is more of an isolated outpost far away from
> the growing Oeresund region around Copenhagen/Zealand
> and Scania with over two million inhabitants or the Western
> Goetaland Region with over one million inhabitants. Oslo as
> capital has a much more logical place in the state of
> Norway closer to Europe.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil
> 
> 
> 
> > > Oh, horror of horrors. No! such a possibility must be opposed
> > > at all cost.  They are Swedish or bust !

Hi,

I try to write this again I forgot to save the text and it dissapeard

I think you misses Keths point, Bertil.

I don't think that anyone on the list wants do discuss the 
nationality of any moden goths. Simply because there are none as I 
have understood. 

It's therefore unnecessary to note words(Sweden Norway Scandinavia 
etc, since I think everybody understand anyway that todays 
stateborders are totally irrelevant.

But Keth do have a real point.

This concerns in my opinion ther fact that goths and Gaut are two 
different things wich shouldn't be mixed up.

Gaut is a nordic god and name( which Götaland(Gautland) apparently is 
named after) as the runes and Snorri tells us. Goths were a people on 
the continent which  spoke the gothic language and split up in 
Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

As Jordanes writes the goths may have immigated from the Island 
scandza around the beginning of our era. This island could actually 
be Gotland(formerly gallede Gutland) judging from jordanes 
description, but this was apparently such a long time ago so that it 
is undistinguishable in the gutnish language, which is a north 
germanic language or dialect.

I therefore prefer to believe in the view hinted out by Snorri 
Sturlusson that the worship of Gaut came from the south with Odin and 
his people. This is also said to be in the beginning of our era e. g. 
in the Ole Wormius transcript of the prologue of the Edda.
( translating 
from swedish) Snorri (or someone else)? himself from the  Ole Wormius 
the life medic of danish king Kristian IV transcript of the prologue 
of the Edda in Åke Ohlmark's translation of the Edda, Uddevalla 1964 
(its quite long so, I don't have time to translate the whole of it 
now):  
----------
>From their glory the aftercoming generations named themselves after 
their highness names, especially the romans which had been the most 
excellent in many things after the days of the trojumen. So it is 
told, that when Roma was completely built, then the 
romans applied their customs and laws as close as possible to what 
common  among ther forefathers the trojumen. And so much force 
followed this people for many ages after, that when the roman chief 
Pompeius was ravaging in the east lands, then Odin fled out of Asia 
to here to the north in the world and then gave himself and his folk 
their name, so that Priamus was said to have been called Odin and his 
queen Frigg. From this also the kingdom was named, and Frigia  was 
the place called where the stronghold stood.  And whether Odin 
claimed this to give him greater honour or the names once were the 
same but had been changed with the confusion of tounges, so has , 
however, many wise men held this for a truth, and it ocurred for long 
ages after that each one who was a great chief took these old as 
example...
When Odin chose stronghold town for himself where it now is called 
Sigtuna, then that stronghold was named after his own name . But when 
he took the kingdom, he called himself Njord, and that is why it is 
said in old wisdom books that the first Svea king was called Njord, 
which only means that it was Odin himself who there had been the 
highest...)
-----------
 
Of course Snorri might be wromg but it seems to me that the evidenve 
are for him not against him.
My hunch is that Gaut (coming from the suth) and goths(from the 
north) are totally unrelated, even though of course the goths also 
later may have been worshiping Gaut.
I seem to remember that Ingemar Nordström in Goterkällan showed that 
several germanic people worshiped Gaut, maybe also goths.

Therefore Goths and Gaut - Ethymologically unrelated  point and end.

Best wishes 
Anders



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