[gothic-l] Re: Harlingen

[Troels Brandt]

Hi Dirk and Keth

I agree that -ingen in modern Harlingen is a normal suffix in the 
names of Dutch and German cities without connection to -ungen, but 
this is not the case in the Austrian names and probably not in 
Harlinger Land either, where there also appear to be a city called 
Harle! But the explanation of the suffix is not my real target, 
although the suffix should be explained.

There is probably a connection between the Austrian and Frisian 
names. They are very close in spelling, they are apparently from the 
same century, and they are all located close to areas which were 
regarded as Herulian territory only 350 years earlier according to 
Roman historians. 

We are not the first to combine the Austrian names with the Heruls as 
Herilungoburg was located at Pöchlarn in Nibelungengau, where Rüdeger 
von Bechlarn in Nibelungenlied is supposed to come from. He is 
normally regarded as a version of the Herulian king Roduulf - but 
this will probably only prove that "we are not the first". This place 
is at the Danube a little west of Moravia/Marchfeld which is normally 
described as their kingdom by scholars, but Herilungoburg might be in 
the border region against the Rugians and later the Lombards under 
the strong regime of Roduulf.

I believe Dirk is right, that the Western Heruls in this way might be 
located to Harlinger Land and maybe also along the northern coast of 
Netherland to Harlingen north of Ijsellmeer, where one part of the 
Rhine probably had its mouth at that time.

I do not know how much importance the "H" has. There has always been 
confusion about this - just look in the archives of this list. This 
could be due to the different writing in Latin and Greek. If the 
sound was difficult to hear (as Francisc describe the development in 
modern Greek) the writing probably depended of which traditions the 
writers of a people followed. This is however an area where I am only 
able to ask questions.

I remember the discussions about the inscriptions "Ek ErilaR". They 
are spread over Scandinavia, they are dated in both the 5th and the 
6th century, and the Heruls of Procopius migrated in the middle of 
the period, so the inscriptions can't be used in the way some 
listmembers used them last year.

The sources have to be checked with local scholars, but I still hope 
to hear from some of our linguists about a possible development from 
Herul to Eorl and ErilaR - especially now as Dirk has explained where 
he found a "missing link".  

Troels

PS til Keth: Tak for en norsk hilsen på dansk - vi må nu nok hellere 
holde os til det engelske - trods alt. Nu har du også fået brugt en 
del af dine æ'er.



--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> Hi Troels and Keth,
> 
> I am probably of very little help in any placename debate, but in 
> general South-German placenames ending in -ing or -ingen are 
> indicative of Alamannic settlements, while placenames ending in -
heim 
> are seen as Frankish (at least in the relevant areas).  
> 
> The placenames that I mentioned Herlingo/Herulingo, (but could also 
be 
>  Herlingio and Herulingio) are refering to the Harlinger Land in 
> Frisia (Germany). I encountered these names in a history of Lower 
> Saxony and I think these forms dated to the 9th century. The book 
(I 
> cannot remember the exact reference right now) made however no link 
to 
> the Heruls; that is my own speculation. 
> 
>.............. 
 

.............
> >I am of course interested to know which of these places have 
> >earlier been attested as Herulingo and Herlingo
> >.........
> >Both places are in the area where the Western Heruls could be 
> >expected to live, when we combine the Roman sources. A similar 
name 
> >from 832/853 is found close to or in the Herulian areas of Austria 
> >(Herilungoburg/Herilungevelde confirmed by Andreas). 
> >
> >I did not see the importance of the Frisian name Harlingen before 
> >Dirk also provided us with the earlier form, but the 4 names above 
> >and their reverse combinations of letters could be another 
indication 
> >confirming the theory about a connection between the words Eruli
> >(L)/Herul(G/E), Eorl(OE)/Earl(E)/Erell(Irish 847) and ErilaR(ON 
runes 
> >450-550) as H is often silent. 
> >
> >I have this question to our linguists:  
> >
> >Is it possible to compare acceptable deviations from the same name 
in 
> >this way? 
> >Names of places: Herul- - Harl-/Herl- - Heril-
> >Names of groups: Herul  - Earl  -  Erel-/Eril-
> >
> >The ending -ingo/-ungo/-unge might be the ending known from 
Nibelungen
> >(G), Völsungen(G), Skjoldunger(D) or Ynglinge(S) - or from the
> >name mentioned in connection with the Goths in Widsith: Herelingas
> >(OE) probably being the Heruls.  
> 



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