[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >Thule, is that Norway or Sweden for Procopius? Usually it is seen 
as
> >Norway sometimes the Orkneys and sometimes even Iceland as far as I
> >know. The question maybe analogue to what Procopius understood 
under
> >Britannia/Britta. There is good reason to believe that he thought 
that
> > Britannia/Britta is the same as Jutland. Others think that he
> >confused Britain with Britany, while at the same time confusing it
> >with a mythtical island of the dead. In general, it is clear that 
he
> >knew very little about that region let alonge Thule.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Dirk,
> 
> Why must we always speculate. Why not read what Procopius says.
> 
> 
> VI.XV.27
> "Thus, then, do the inhabitants of Thule live. And one of their most
> numerous nations is the Gauti, and it was next to them  that the 
incoming
> Eruli settled at the time in question."
> 
> Further the arcaeological findings show a big change at exactly the 
same
> time as Procopius says that the Eruli settled next to the Gauti. 
There is
> only an unsurmountable forrest between where the Gauti lived and the 
lake
> Mälar area where we have many of the archaeological findings from 
the 6th
> century.



Hi Tore,

that is all very nice, but the problem is that Procopius sometimes 
reported reliable information and sometimes he reported a mixture of 
fiction and fantasy. Sometimes it is easy to tell the two appart, but 
often it isn't. That is why Procopius has to be interpreted against 
the background of other sources, evidence and theory.

Consider the following exerpts from Procopius, and you will see that 
he had no clear idea about where or what Britain was and where or what 
Thule was.


History of the Wars 8.20.4-5

"The island of Brittia lies in this the northern ocean, not far from 
the shore, rather about two hundred stades away, approximately
 opposite the mouths of the Rhine; and it is between Britannia and the 
island of Thule. Whereas Britannia lies towards the West opposite the 
extremities of the land of the Spaniards, separated from the mainland 
[of the Spaniards] by about four thousand stades, no less, Brittia on 
the other hand faces the rear of Gaul, the parts of it facing the 
ocean – clearly, to the north of Spain and Britannia."


If Brittia is Britannia as Procopius later suggested, we have one 
Britain to many. In fact, if Thule is Sweden, his Britta would be 
Jutland or so. But then he states it is an island 200 stades from the 
mouth of the Rhine. Other authors said that his Thule must be Norway 
and that Britta are the Orkneys. But then his distance is out of 
scale and his later identification with Britannia makes no sense. What 
remains is the fact that Procopius used different and contradictory 
sources without making an effort to adjust the information one way or 
another. Thus, when he said that somebody went to Thule, he had no 
clue where that was, apart from 'somewhere in the North'.

Consider the following expert to see that Procopius' information about 
political ongoings in those areas was also highly confused and 
probably assempled from unreliable hear-say stories.


History of the Wars 8.20.6-10
"Three very populous nations inhabit the Island of Brittia, and one 
king is set over each of them. And the names of these nations are
Angles, Frisians, and Britons who have the same name as the island. So 
great apparently is the multitude of these peoples that every year in 
large groups they migrate from there with their women and children and 
go to the Franks. And they [the Franks] are settling them in what 
seems to be the more desolate part of their land, and as a result of 
this they say they are gaining possession of the island. So that not 
long ago the king of the Franks actually sent some of his friends to 
the Emperor Justinian in Byzantium, and despatched with them the men 
of the Angles, claiming that this island [Britain], too, is ruled by 
him. Such then are the matters concerning the island called Brittia."

Now it is clear, Procopius thinks that Britta is Britannia, meaning 
that Thule is completely misplaced in his earlier statement. In fact, 
it cannot be clearly identified with anything. Also, with this report 
Procopius shows that he had no understanding of the geography of 
northern Europe and very little understanding about the political 
situation. He used the same names and components again and again. He 
knew about the Varnians and squeezed them into all sorts of stories, 
but he didn't really knew about the Saxons, so he does not mention 
them in Britain or on the continent, although at least two of his 
reports would have required him to do so, if he only had reliable 
information. 

This is why Procopius leaves us no choice but to interpret and to 
speculate.

As for archaeological evidence, there is nothing to relate the grave 
assemblages of Moravia or the Neusiedler See which are seen as Herulic 
with those in Scandinavia or the Upsalla region. In fact some of the 
most startling indications are curiosly absent from there.

cheers

Dirk

PS  I think we should move this discussion back to the Germanic list, 
where it is probably better placed.





> 
> I quote from Origin of Svear:
> 1. Suddenly a Svea power appeared which was strong enough to wage 
war
> against the Gutar, island of Gotland in the Baltic. From where did 
those
> Svear come?
> 2. A new fashion in burying saw the light in the Lake Mälar Area 
during the
> 6th century. The burials were very ritual, which indicates that 
religion
> very much directed the treatment of man for the next life.
> 3. The Svear used the Roman Julian sun calender which is considered 
to have
> been introduced in Uppland about the year 500. Still in the 17th 
century
> the Disthing-day in Uppsala was calculated according to this 
calendar.
> 4. The Æsir-religion which can be interpreted as the religion of the
> warlike masters makes its appearance whilst the Vana-belief probably 
was
> the religion of the peaceful farming people. The Æsir-religion can 
be
> considered a child of an Iranian religion, which after its founder, 
Mani,
> is called Manikeism. This religion gained from the 4th century wide
> acceptance outside of the Persian state of the time. The 
Æsir-religion has
> also borrowed ideas from early Christianity.
> 
> Tore


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