[gothic-l] Goths in the East

[george knysh]

--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
> Thank you for rendering your reading of the
> Nestor Chronicle. I have the latest Swedish
> translation at hand and it is distinctly different
> from you account. I think you have mixed things
> up:

*****GK: Hardly. I operate with original texts, not
with translations.  Frankly, though, I think that your
problems run somewhat deeper than that of an exclusive
reliance on inaccurate translations (as pointed out by
Tore). I'm not at all sure that you understand these
texts sufficiently to offer any worthwhile
hermeneutics.******
>
> "Och de drog oever havet till varjagerna, till
> ruserna. Ty dessa varjager kallades ruser
> på samma saett som  andra kallas svear,
> andra aater normanner och angler och ytterligare
> andra foer goter - paa samma saett aeven dessa."
> (p. 27). So Varyagi, Rus, Swedes, Normans, Angles
> and Goths are mentioned in the same sentence
> here as peoples of a similar kind. Now, a people
> called the Rus has never been identified in Sweden,
> so ther has to be another explanation.

******GK: Good old Nestor would have an instant answer
for you here (in fact he already gave it but you seem
to have missed it): the reason why no "Rus" have ever
been identified in Sweden, N. would say, is because
they all left with Rurik and moved East...This is one
of the points relied on by various "anti-Normanists"
to reject the Nestor thesis as an artificial
construct. But the Gothic list is not the venue for
such discussions.*******
>
>(BH) The peoples you mention had representatives
> coming to the Rus asking them to bring order
> to their country. They were not Rus but exactly
> the tribes mentioned

*****GK: If your Swedish translation of Nestor s.a.
882 does not state that the "Rus" who came to Kyiv
with "Oleg" were a motley crew of many nationalities,
then it is a bad translation. I have already pointed
out that this text is viewed as more ancient and
accurate than Nestor's later construction. I would
also suggest that you check the first pages of your
translation. If it is accurate you should find there
that the concept of "Varangian Sea" and "Varangian
peoples" is much broader than simply Scandinavians.
But I have already given you the gist of this in a
previous post and will not repeat myself. As for
Pritsak, there is nothing in his work to support
Soederland's fantastic speculations. I know Pritsak
fairly well, and have had many conversations with him.
I have criticized some of his theories in various
journals and in my own books, while recognizing the
high quality of many of his surmises. He would laugh
at your Gothic fantasies. It would be best for
everyone if you stopped flogging this dead horse and
devoted your investigative energies to more productive
pursuits.******


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