[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East
einarbirg
einarbirg at YAHOO.COM
Fri Jan 11 17:22:53 UTC 2002
--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Einar,
>
> thanks for posting this again. I have nothing against Barthi's
> theories about East Scandinavian influence on Iceland and this
> question is not even remotely relevant for this list. But I still
> find a theory arguing that a part of the first settlers in Iceland
> were Heruls extremely weird and not believable no matter how many
> people you can cite who thing the opposite.
>
> cheers,
> Dirk
>
> ******Einar. HÆ Dirk.
POST WHAT AGAIN?????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is obvious you do not read my posts. Nothing or almost nothing in
this letter I have posted before. It is very obvious you do not read
my posts. You do not want to read about Barði´s theories even if
they are related to the Heruli questions being discussed but feel
confident enough to come with all kinds of comments about the subject.
Is there any explanation for that you comment on my letter without
having read it.????
It is obvious when you say; no matter how many people.........
that you (with deepest respect for you) can not face that you could
be wrong.
This theory of mine is reinforced by the fact that you comment om my
letter without reading it.
*****Take care. Einar.***********
>
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> >
> > Hæ. Talking about acceptance of "old" ideas then lets look at
> what
> > Lee M. Hollander has to
> say.
> > The man who translated Barðis book to English was Dr. Lee M.
> > Hollander, professor of Germanic languages at the University of
> Texas
> > and was said to be an authority in the field of Old Norse
> literature.
> > He translated the book in 1967 and obviously did not find Barðis
> > ideas neither bizarre not
> outdated.
> > It is actually obvious from what he says that he respects Barði a
> lot.
> > Calling him a great scholar even.
> >
> > From indroduction,quote; It was in the summer of 1939 at the
annual
> > Congress of Scandinavists in Copenhagen that the recently
appointed
> > Keeper of the National Archives of Iceland, Barthi Guthmundsson,
> > startled his learned colleagues with a paper on the nationality
of
> > the Icelanders. In it he sought to prove with novel arguments
that,
> > contrary to the generally held belief, important elements among
the
> > settlers were not of West Scandinavian, i.e. Norwegian, but of
East
> > Scandinavian, Danish, and ultimately Herulian origin.
> >
> > Einar; It is obvious that the aim of Lee´s translation is to
> promote
> > Barði´s ideas. It can savely be said that Dr. Lee did accept
> Barði´s
> > ideas though I am not saying that he would have accepted
everything.
> >
> > From indroduction, quote;......together with the difficaulty,
even
> > for Scandinavians, of Modern Icelandic no doubt accounts for the
> > pioneering labors of this great scholar remaining practically
> > unknown, let alone being accepted. The translation here offered
> aims
> > to remedy the
> situation.
> >
> > Einar; And this English translation is so little known that even
> > Icelandic scholars seem to be unaware of it.
> > So one of the foremost authority in the 2oth century in the field
> of
> > Old Norse literature calles Barði a great scholar and is
promoting
> > his writings by translating them from Icelandic to English.
> > Obviously this great and openminded scholar did not find Barðis
> > writings bizarre nor outdated. But finds Barði a great scholar.
> >
> > About Barðis general ideas then they are discussed in letter no.
> 4038
> > on Germanic-L.
> >
> > Scholar Gísli Sigurðsson does mention Barðis ideas in his book;
> > Gaelic Influence in Iceland, University of Iceland press
> 2000.
> > He does mention Barðis reaserch into skaldship and quotes part of
> his
> > reaserch in a favorable way. He even does mention Barðis Heruli
> > theories without comments.
> > This reasercher does obviously not find Barðis ideas bizarre nor
> > outdated.
> >
> > In the book Kuml og Haugfé (Pagan burials and grave findings)
> > published 1999 or 2000 then the author( archaeologist) uses
Barði´s
> > theories to explain artifacts findings of East Scandinavian
origin.
> > He discusses Barði theories in a very favorable manner but does
not
> > mention the Heruli theories.
> > But it must be considered the job of archaeologists to dig up old
> > things and then the writings of "old" authors too.
> > But obviously this author did not find Barðis ideas bizarre nor
> > outdated.
> > And to make it clear then Icelandic burial practices did not
derive
> > from West or Southwest Norway. They have most similarities to
> > Scandinavian burial practices in the British Isles.
> >
> > Archaeologist Orri Vésteinsson says in Saga Book(1997) in his
> > article; Patterns of settlement in Iceland: A study in prehistory.
> >
> > Quote; For quite some time it also seemed reasonable to pinpoint
a
> > specific region in Scandinavia as the place of origin of the
> > Icelandic settlers. West and Southwest Norway has always been the
> > favorite, but this is based more on the Book of Settlement than
any
> > sound archaeological evidence............
> > In general it is safe to say that most Icelandic scholars shy
away
> > from speculations concerning the precise origin of the settlers
of
> >
>
Iceland.
> >
> > Einar;It is just like this is directly being taken out of Barðis
> book
> > actually. Shy away. Yes,indeed. Because they all know, even the
> > nationalistic ones that the old theories do not hold water. And
> they
> > all know Barðis theories and if accepting his theories that would
> > crush a lot of academic papers. It would turn their world upside
> > down. And surely they do not like the Heruli idea. And then their
> > pride has to be taken into consideration.
> >
> > Actually one of the most prominent genetic scientists in Iceland,
> > Agnar Helgason mentions Barði´s ideas in a book published by
> > academics in Iceland in 1997.(Við og hinir-University of Iceland
> 1997)
> > He does not seem to find Barði´s ideas bizarre not outdated.
> > He is discussing the origin of the Icelanders.
> >
> > He quotes there professor Sveinbjörn Rafnsson that says that the
> Book
> > of Settlement is a political spin(fabrication) written to justify
> at
> > that day distribution of land(land ownership) and consolidate the
> > power of the ruling class.
> >
> > Agnar talkes about unsuspected genetic results concerning the
> origin
> > of the Icelanders. He talks about what has been happening in this
> > field in general and the
> results.
> > On the first page he discusses Barði´s Heruli theories. He calls
> his
> > hypothesis about the Heruli; frekar langsótta kenningu. That is;
a
> > rather farfetched theory. I am not sure this word farfetched is
the
> > most accurate translation.
> > And he says; rather.
> > Maybe he is echoing some "consensus" here among Icelandic
scholars.
> > But I can not be sure of course. But he mentions Barði´s theory
for
> a
> > special purpose. As you soon can see.
> > And he finds the theory farfetched on historical grounds not by
the
> > measurements of genetic sciences.
> >
> > In his conclusions about the origin of the Icelanders Agnar
> > says;
> > Genetic results in Iceland can be explained mainly in three ways;
> > 1. Part of the original settlers could have had their ancestry in
> > groups of people with different genetic combinations than
> > Scandinavians and Celts. Enn sú skýring virðist ekki sennileg
which
> > means; But that explanation does not seem to be likely.
> >
> > Einar; He mentions this hypothesis as his first but do not find
it
> > very likely(on historical grounds)Because he does express himself
> in
> > such a way it is obvious that he considers this hypothesis as a
> > possibility to explain genetic results.
> >
> > 2. Founder effect.Does find that theory rather unlikely(frekar
> > ólíkleg).That is being less important than no 1. and 3.
> >
> > 3. Genetic drift. Í þriðja lagi mætti líta svo á, og sú skýring
> > virðist mest sannfærandi.... As a third possibility we could look
> at
> > and find that explanation to be seemingly the most convincing.
> >
> > Einar; Virðist mest is; seemingly the most.
> > So he hesitantly says that this third explanation is seemingly
the
> > most convincing. That is seemingly. Seems to be meaning because
of
> > historical grounds because he knows perfectly well that not all
> > differences can be explained away with genetic drift. Most likely
> he
> > is saying that these three possibilities are all valid as a
> > explanation but none of them excludes the
> other.
> >
> > He is really saying that for explaining the genetic results so far
> > (and reaserch in physical anthropology,blood grouping A-B-AB-O
and
> > protein,amino acids which he discusses too)then there are mainly
> > three explanations. And one of the explanations is that part of
the
> > settlers could trace their ancestry outside of Scand. or British
> > Isles.
> > NB He clearly states that genetic results can be explained mainly
> in
> > three ways. He is saying that these three explanations are all
> valid.
> >
> > And if he would promote the first explanation then that could
cause
> a
> > violent reaction from some Icelandic scholars.Therefore he is so
> very
> > careful. And he does not talk about the Heruli in the
conclusions..
> > But it is obvious that he is making reference to Barði´s ideas.
If
> > it is possible that some part of the first settlers could trace
> their
> > ancestry outside of Scandinavia and the British Isles then it is
> > obvious that Barði´s Heruli theories spring to his
> mind.
> > And he is perfectly aware that genetic drift involved is not so
> much
> > as to totally neutralize hypothesis no 1.
> > Further genetic evidence published in the American Journal of
Human
> > Genetics 2000 and 2001 has further supported hypothesis no. 1.
> >
> > It is simply so that it seems to be that a part of the original
> > settlers in Iceland could trace their ancestry to areas outside
of
> > Scandinavia and the British Isles.
> > Like it or not. The easiest explanation for that is that Barði
was
> > right. Part of the descendants of Heruli chieftainly families who
> > were then these East Scandinavian chieftainly families migrated
> > eventually to Iceland. Accepting this would solve all
the "unsolved
> > mysteries/problems" Icelandic scholars in this field have
> > been "trying" to solve.
> >
> > The hypothesis that explains most problems/issues in a
satisfactory
> > manner should be adopted.
> > They who do not like that theory simply have to come up with
better
> > ones. Or swallow their pride.
> >
> > Forget the old theory about Icelanders being native Norwegian
> > emigrants from Southwest and Western Norway. Nobody beliefs this
> > anymore.
> >
> > And NB, he says; ættaður frá, that is trace their ancestry to. He
> > does not say that this group(having different genetic makeup)
were
> > themselves from outside of Scandinavia or the British Isles but
> says
> > that they can TRACE THEIR ANCESTRY to groups of people that do
not
> > have their origin in Scand. nor the British Isles.
> > Why does he say it in such a way? He is saying without saying it
> > directly that Barði could be right.
> > That is that genetic results so far do support Barði´s theories.
> >
> > NB This has been a hotly debated issue because nobody beliefs the
> old
> > theories any longer. In a reaserch paper published in the
American
> > Journal of Human Genetics it says(66:999-1016,2000- mtDNA and the
> > origin of the Icelanders.....)
> >
> > Quote;The ancestry of the settlers is more controversial........
> > To date the issue of the origins of the Icelanders remains
> >
>
unresolved.........
> > Besides the controversy surrounding the ancestry of the
> >
>
Icelanders.........
> >
> > Einar;So in year 2000 the issue remains unresolved and it is a
> > controversial
> issue.
> > And all genetic reaserch so far can be seen as supportive of
Barðis
> > ideas. But going against the old theories.
> > And that is hard to swallow for many scholars.
> > Swallowing ones pride and admitting not being right is very,very
> > difficult for many people.
> >
> > Bless,bless Einar.
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