[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > 
> 
>   ***Hæ Dirk.

 Thanks for your kind answer.
> 
> 
> 
> You do not want to read about Barði´s  theories even if 
> > they are related to the Heruli questions being discussed but feel 
> > confident enough to come with all kinds of comments about the 
> subject.
> 
> 
> That is partly true. I am not really interested in a theory 
proposing 
> that Heruls moved to Iceland. It is too far-fetched in my view.

  Einar; In some of my posts from last sept.(when I very much 
unprepared) I might have given(wrongly) the impression that Barði was 
promoting the idea that the Heruli moved to 
Iceland.                                              
That could have happened when in a hurry in the overheated discussion 
we had then...
This is of course not true and that should be clear from my later 
posts. Of course no Heruli moved to Iceland.                          
Some groups emigrating to Iceland  were chieftainly families of East 
Scandinavian origin though they might have come from within what is 
now the borders of present day Norway.
Of course no Heruli moved to Iceland.

If we belief Procopius story of the travel of the Heruli up North
(Which most scholars seem to normally agree on. Or stay neutral)then 
of course these Heruli and their chieftainly families which were the 
ruling class among them settled somewhere and kept on living.Right? 
And they had descendants. 
Maybe they became Ynglingar,Skilfingar,Skjöldungar or jarlar(earls)or 
all these even mixed to some degree. That does not matter here.       

It is a fact that Iceland was settled from Scandinavia. At least the 
ruling class was of Scandinavian origin or of a mixed 
Celtic/Scandinavian stock. These ruling class to some considerable 
degree had their ancestry in East Scandinavia.                        
You see that the the time period from that part of the Heruli settled 
in East Scandinavian territory and these East Scandinavian 
chieftainly families with a long tradition of being the ruling 
class/elíte migrated to Iceland( Mainly from what was called Denmark 
in 900 A.D but nowadays called Norway)is just about 350-400 years.    
The Heruli do seem to have been somekind of a tribe or tribal union 
before migrating to southeast Europe and that happened maybe about 3-
400 years before a part of them went again up North.                  
According to historical sources the Heruli was a special tribe whith 
a special character and customs.                                      
Why is it not possible that these East Scandinavian chieftainly 
families migrating eventually to Iceland carrying with them obviously 
a little bit of a special culture/knowledge like the art of 
skaldship,special knowledge of genealogies,different name practices 
and a very extensive knowledge of legends and stories that can be 
connected to the Huns,Goths and the Heruli could not have been 
descendants of Heruli chieftainly families?
I do not have any books with me now so I can not quote from any 
sources but all kinds of legends/stories/poems/sagas(all in oral 
form,or runic?) about the Huns,Goths and the Heruli were just 
preserved in Iceland.And eventually written down later.(After the 
Irish had taught the Icelanders to write) And then we can mention the 
Eddas who are just as much a Germanic heritage as Scandinavian.
Saxo Grammticus had to rely extensively on the Icelanders in his 
writings about Danish kings and said that the Icelanders were the 
greatest of historians. Why was that? Iceland had a small population 
compared to European countries. Why was all this material conserved 
in Iceland? But to a very much lesser degree or not at all in other 
countries?
Well these are all repetitons but you know that genetic reaserch 
supports this theory. And many scholars seem to have come up with the 
idea that the Heruli were the transmitters of these migration age 
legends to Scandinavia. And NB there is big difference in preserving 
such legends/poems/material in a professional manner than the other 
way around that these knowledge/legends could have been "common" 
among people as folktales,stories etc. That is not the same as 
preserving such material in a professional manner.
Skaldic art was according to more than just Barði practised in a 
professional manner within some families. This was a learned skill as 
preserving old genealogies and legends. That had to be done in a 
professional manner. And that was done by these East Scandinavian 
chieftainly families migrating to Iceland but to a very much lesser 
extent by the members of the ruling class in Scandinavia.

 
> As I said, I read your letter and all I said is that I don't find 
the 
> theory of Heruls in Iceland convincing at all. The main reason 
being 
> that Heruls seized to exist in about the mid-6th century anywhere.

  Einar; As I should have made clear then there were no Heruli 
migrating to Iceland. Some part of the East Scand. chieftainly 
families had the Heruli as ancestors.
> 
> 
> 
> I got the impression that you tried to list as many people as 
> possible to vouch for the credibility of this author to support the 
> theory. My reply is that no matter who good this author is 
otherwise, 
> if he proposes that Heruls moved to Icleand he missed a few 
> fundamental facts or interpolates more that the sources permitt.

  Einar; These words are likely based on some misunderstanding 
between us about that matter. Likely because of my chaotic 
presentation of this subject..
But this Heruli theory is not at all the main theory of Barðis book.
It is just put forth as a likely hypothesis and discussing it takes 
very little space in the book. The book´s main theory is that part of 
the Icelandic chieftainly families were of East Scandinavian origin 
and discussion about their religious practices,name 
traditions,knowledge of skaldship,genealogies etc. And their later 
involvment in saga writing.
It comes as a natural step to assume and make a hypothesis then that 
these chieftainly families had the Heruli as ancestors. That you 
would see if you would read this book. But nothing can be proved 
there and Barði did not really try so either.                         
Only good and solid archaeological and genetic reaserch can prove 
this theory beyond any reasonable doubt.                              
And you do not seem to be impressed by the fact that genetic reaserch 
so far seems to support this theory!
What to belief if not solid genetic reaserch?                         
I suspect that genetic reaserch will solve this matter for us some 
day. 
> 
> 
    Thanks for the info. you provided in your letter. To most of it I 
do disagree as you know.

   Bless,bless Einar.


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