[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > > 
                    
> > To my knowledge there were language changes in Scandinavia 
> happening 
> > at a rather big scale in the sixth century. This info I have from 
> > some posts on Germ or Gothic-L.  
> > If these changes in language were indeed happening in Scandinavia 
> in 
> > the sixth century on some reasonably big scale then it is normal 
to 
> > assume that one of the explanations could be because of a 
> substantial 
> > influx of newcomers. That is maybe the Heruli.
> 
> 
> We should defer this question to a linguist. Here is the article by 
> Oesten Dahl on the origin of Scandinavian languages. 
> http://www.ling.su.se/staff/oesten/papers/Theorigin.pdf
> 
> On page 12 or so he investigates the Upplandic language of the 6th 
> century concluding that it was in no sense an East Germanic 
language, 
> but the continuation of a language spoken their by people who had 
> arrived 500 years earlier. When I had a conversation with him about 
> that some time ago he stressed that there is no East Germanic 
> influence on Scandinavian languages.
> 
>   ******Hæ Dirk.  Thanks for this very interesting link you 
provided for all of us. See above and in your letter no 5551.  
This linguist actually mentions the Heruli in a interesting 
connection in this article
I think that all members that want to promote the idea of the Heruli 
migrating to the North (or are against the idea) should read what 
Osten Dahl has to say. And you who have a interest in runic 
inscriptions and linguistics in general.
And I mean;Read it carefully. Everything.
 
Dahl does not mention what you quote him saying in such a way but as 
you have talked with him personally then I have no objections.        
But I doubt that there is NO influence. I think that this matter is a 
little bit more complicated and just reading his paper here; The 
origin of the Scandinavian languages, gives me the impression that he 
would have possibly expressed himself a little bit differently or 
made some reservations if he were expressing himself in a scientific 
paper/article than in a privat conversation.
My impression from reading this article would make me think that he 
would not make such a firm statement without any reservations.

Another thing is that many of his ideas seem to be opposite the 
traditional view to a considerable extent. He is challenging accepted 
views.And very much so.

On page 8 he talks about the Heruli. 
Under paragraff 10(small letters)
He seems to accept that  the older Futhark inscriptions were created 
by peripathetic(should be;peripatetic) scribes of Heruli origin and 
uses this for giving strong support to his conclusions.

Talking about scribes. Just reminds my of Icelandic scribes(members 
of Ice. chieftainly families) then having their ancestry in the East 
Scand. chieftainly families that had their ancestry in the Heruli 
chieftainly families.

On page 2 he says that he will argue that,Quote; the Common Nordic 
hypothesis is neither plausible given what we know about the language 
and language change in general nor supported by the linguistic data 
at hand.                                                        
Einar;Well,well not supported. Just what I had guessed.

On page 12 he talks about the Mjöbro stone and says; In particular, 
we may note similarities with Gothic..............................

He talks of a "prestige dialect" connected to the ruling classes in 
Scandinavia.Page 13 and other places.

He talkes about a mobile elité(page 14)which is VERY supportive of 
Barði´s theories and later on the same page says that the description 
of the Scandinavian tongue as Danish tongue,even in Iceland  was 
because of Danish overlordship in the North.
All VERY,VERY supportive of Barði´s theories.

Osten Dahl´s article is very professional and he supports his theory 
with good arguments.
It seems to me that linguists have so far taken to many things for 
granted in a uncritical way about the development and origin of 
Scandinavian languages.That was just what I had previously suspected.

This article can be seen as supportive of the idea that the Heruli 
moved to Scandinavia and supportive too of the idea that some of 
their descendants moved to Iceland later on.

Bless Bless Einar.





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