[gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

[Francisc Czobor]

Hi, Vladimir!
(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the 
West Goths, but not their mainstream.
In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube 
(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the 
persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave 
alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who 
settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE 
of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the 
Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by 
Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather 
the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year 
the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration 
because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle 
of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was 
killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in 
the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with 
modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores. 
They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German 
historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th 
century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the 
neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the 
links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were 
neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and 
Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The 
controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make 
sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that 
from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot 
be assigned to any known language.
However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend 
from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as 
a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
Slavic language continuum.

Francisc


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at i...> wrote:
> Hi, Francisc!
>  
> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
com:office:office" />
> 
> I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae 
> to either Celtic or German world. The more so 
> since it is not very important for your hypothesis. 
> By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as 
> a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics 
> nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae 
> were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and 
> Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures, 
> and he considered them as possible forerunners 
> (among others) of the Slavs.
> 
>  
> 
> (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
> 
> http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
> 
>  <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm> 
http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
> 
>  
> 
> Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant 
> the period when the Goths started their migration 
> to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when 
> the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths 
> just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia. 
> That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were, 
> if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course, 
> the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
> 
>  
> 
> The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c. 
> (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that 
> invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually 
> applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea. 
> I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure 
> the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube, 
> those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is 
> also incidentally.
> 
>  
> 
> Vladimir
> 



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