[gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

[Tore Gannholm]

Hi!

I have part of

Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
Mark B. Schukin

on

http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm

Tore


>Hi, Vladimir!
>(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
>
>The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
>West Goths, but not their mainstream.
>In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
>(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
>persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
>alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
>settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
>of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
>Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
>Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
>the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
>the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
>because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
>of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
>killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
>the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
>modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
>But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
>They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
>historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
>century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
>neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
>
>I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
>links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
>neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
>Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
>controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
>sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
>from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
>be assigned to any known language.
>However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
>from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
>a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
>Slavic language continuum.
>
>Francisc
>
>
>--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at i...> wrote:
>>  Hi, Francisc!
>> 
>>  <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
>com:office:office" />
>>
>>  I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
>>  to either Celtic or German world. The more so
>>  since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
>>  By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
>>  a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
>>  nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
>>  were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
>>  Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
>>  and he considered them as possible forerunners
>>  (among others) of the Slavs.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
>>
>>  http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
>>
>>   <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
>http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
>>  the period when the Goths started their migration
>>  to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
>>  the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
>>  just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
>>  That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
>>  if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
>>  the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
>>  (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
>>  invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
>>  applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
>  > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
>>  the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
>>  those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
>>  also incidentally.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Vladimir
>>
>
>
>
>
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>
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