[gothic-l] Re: Jutes and Goths

[sunnytjatsingh]

Hi Dirk, 

"the fact that you continously quote from books, which are between 
100 
and 500 years old is really curious. Especially since modern research 
is more easily available."

There is nothing really curious about it.  Wolfram (1988) is inclined 
to believe Jordanes.  Christensen (2002) is apt to reject Jordanes 
mention of Scandinavia and his mentioned of the Eastern Getae.  The 
view of these two modern authors seem to be polar.  Why such as 
deviation in beliefs?

If Christensen can go to the extent of saying the origins of Goths as 
testified in Jordanes's history is fanciful, then I see no problem 
examining the works of other classical historians, and even the 
writers of the 16th and 17th centuries.  

"Yes, 'Oxford 1649' gives you are clou as to the reliability of the 
information. Such a dictionary is certainly curious, but not a good 
source for up-to-date research."

Why?

"Yes, as the Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde 
under 'Jueten', writes, even ancient Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian 
sources were notorious for their confusion of these names. What would 
you expect from books published in the 16th and 17th century? At this 
time knowledge about the late antiquity was still close to an all-
time low."

Why?

"If more prove was needed, the last bit of your quote shows that 
Shore 
knew bonkers about these things. Sorry for my slobby expression, but 
linking Kent with Goths and Goths with runes just is too much to 
deserve a serious deliberation. The Goths have nothing to do with 
Britain whatsoever. To be sure, Shore may have represented the 
cutting edge when he wrote in 1906, but you should consult the latest 
literature to get a sense of what 100 years of research has come up 
with."

Have you read Samuel Kliger's book: Kliger, S. The Goths in England, 
Cambridge. Harvard University Press: 1952 ?

"On the Goths, you could look at P. Heather's and H. Wolfram's books. 
On the Germanic people in general, you may want to consult M. Todd 
and H. Wolfram or A. Lund."

Here are some quote by Heather and Wolfram, as compared to 
Christensen:

Peter Heather in his work The Goths, states at in the beginning of 
his book, "The Getica is thus the closest we will ever come to Gothic 
History as told by Goths (Heather 1996: 13)."

Now Christensen (2002) suggests the exact opposite – who do we 
believe?

Wolfram writes, "Does this mean, after all, that the Goths originated 
in Scandinavia? Reinhard Wenkus had already given an answer, which 
ought to be slightly changed: not entire peoples but small successive 
clans, the bearers of prestigious traditions, emigrated and became 
founders of new gentes (Wolfram 1988: 39)."

Now Christensen (2002) suggest that an incursion to the mainland from 
Scandinavia, as testified by Jordanes is probably not likely, neither 
is the origin from Getae.  The author cites Isidore of Seville who 
never seems to mention a Scandinavian connection regarding Goths – 
who do we believe?

So what light has modern scholarship shone on the origin of Goths?  

The reason we are all here is because we are not satisfied about the 
origin and progress of the Goths.  I believe in leaving no stone 
unturned in this process. 

Just the mere fact that classical writers such as Dexippos, Orosios, 
Josephus, Cassidorus, Jordanes and Isidore of Seville mention that 
the Goths were  "Scythian" or "Getae" leaves me ample room to examine 
this aspect.  Best Wishes, 



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