[gothic-l] Re: Jats über alles??

Fri Jul 11 10:53:48 UTC 2003

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor at y...> 
wrote:
> It seems that some members of the Gothic list (namely Ravi and 
Sunny) 
> are trying to persuade us that there must be some connection 
between 
> the Indian Jats and the European Goths and/or Getae.

Yes, that is my impression as well. It is of course complete and 
utter nonsense, but their persistence is remarkable. 

> Their efforts recall for me other cases where people (including 
> scholars) are trying to demonstrate that their own nation is 
> something more special than others.
> I'm Romanian, but ethnically I have also Hungarian and German 
origins 
> (BTW, my last name is Hungarian).
> I have read Romanians claiming that Romanian was the first language 
> of civilization, that the Carpathian mountains were the cradle of 
> civilization and that Latin and even Sanskrit are derived from the 
> Romanian language.
> I have read Hungarians claiming that Hungarian seems to be the 
oldest 
> language of humankind and is closely related to Sumerian, but 
> Hungarian is not possible to be derived from Sumerian, thus the 
> Sumerians were an ancient Hungarian tribe, and Hungarian roots are 
to 
> be found in the cultural words of all languages.
> Let's not speak about the horrible Nazi ideology with "Deutschland 
> über alles" and the superiority of the so-called "Arian" race.

You are completely right. Just to put in a good word for the author 
of the poem which includes the line 'Deutschland ueber alles', who's 
name was Hoffmann von Fallersleben. His call to put 'Germany above 
everything' was addressed to the numerous German states which existed 
at the time and which all persued their own little interests. Hence, 
F. Hoffmann von Fallersleben never meant that Germany or Germans were 
better than other people. He really was a good guy.;-)

> But on the other hand, the Jews, who suffered the most because of 
> this ideology, are also claiming that they are some "superior" 
race, 
> based on the Old Testament where they are described as the "choosen 
> people" of God.
> And the examples could be multiplied. Some decades ago the official 
> ideology of Turkey claimed that the Turks were at the origin of all 
> civilization, and even trayed to demonstrate that the Turkish 
> language descends from Hittite (the Indo-European character of the 
> latter didn't matter for them).
> I'm also member of the AN-Network, a discussion group on 
Austronesian 
> (Austronesian is a large linguistic family, comprising Malay, 
> Malagasy of Madagascar, the languages of Indonesia and of the 
> Philippines, the languages of the Pacific islands – Melanesia, 
> Micronesia, and Polynesia, as well as the aboriginal languages of 
> Taiwan). There are some member of AN-Network, mainly of 
Philippinese 
> origin, who are trying to demonstrate that Austronesians are at the 
> origin of human civilization, claiming for instance that the oldest 
> known civilization – the Sumerian – was established by some 
> Austronesian tribes/clans, that the whole Indian culture comes from 
> Austronesians, trying to demonstrate that the Dravidian languages 
and 
> even Sanskrit are related to Austronesian languages, and such 
similar 
> things. Even the name of Babylon they try to put in connection with 
a 
> Philippinese tribal/geographical name. One of them claimed even 
that 
> the non-Austronesian members of AN-Network have a lower 
> understanding, being not able to understand such things (I was 
really 
> upset by this flagrant piece of Austronesian racism!)
> Now, the Jats. I have read in the JatHistory list (a Yahoo-group) a 
> message (no. 93 of Jan 15, 2003, from JD Singhji) claiming that 
> William the Conqueror was a Jat !! (???). The message sounds like 
> this:
> "Here is another interesting story from English history: 
> - In 1066 AD, William the Conqueror (a Norman) defeated Saxon
> King Harold in the battle of Hasting. It is said the
> carnage to terrible but the Normans prevailed. Then
> some 25,000 Normans enslaved 2+ million Saxons.
> William was ruler of Normandy (present day France).
> He was a Norman, The Normans were decendents of
> Danes (Denmark). We know Denmark and Norway (e.g. Jutland) 
> are related to Jat tribes. Their languages to this
> day is close to Sanskrit. This makes William a
> Jat...and Norman Jats went to rule England.
> WOW - this is an incredible piece of history."

Wow -this is an incredible piece of nonsense. In fact, it is past 
national chauvinism and bordering on Nazism. 

> In another message (no. 177 of JatHistory) we can read: "In this 
> grouping we can recognize many Scyth connected names, like  the 
> Getae, Guti, Yuti and Goths. The gep root may be found in the  clan 
> Gepidae which invaded Europe along with the Huns."
> In a recent message to the Gothic-L (no. 7172 of Jul 11, 2003), 
Ravi 
> wrote:
> "If the information cited is valid, that tribes from " Scytia" 
came  
> into what is now Germany (and further) and brought with them hemp 
and 
> the usage of that word.
> Who were these tribes, clans , from " Scythia". ?"
> Taking into account the precedents, this seems a rhetorical 
question, 
> the answer being probably like this: "of course, there were the Jat 
> clans who brought with them hemp and the usage of that word". 
> (following this reasoning, a Native American could claim that some 
> Native American tribes or clans came from America in Europe, 
bringing 
> with them tomato, tobacco, potato, etc. and the usage of these 
> words!!!).
> I don't want to offend anybody and I apologize if someone could 
feel 
> offended by this message or if there was a missunderstanding from 
my 
> side. But, believe me, I have enough from "Deutschland über 
> alles", "Romanians über alles", "Hungarians über alles", "Turks 
über 
> alles", "Jews über alles", "Austronesians über alles" etc. etc., I 
> don't want now "Jats über alles".

I agree with Francisc. 

Dirk 

> 
> Francisc

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