[gothic-l] Re: Ravi and Sunny

Tue Jul 15 19:49:21 UTC 2003

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "AElfric and Ursula" <amali at s...>
wrote:
> Dirk,
>
> >I never said that Sunny or Ravi have stifled the discussion. I
merely
> >pointed out that avoiding to provide any evidence, but only quotes
> >from outdated books does not make a discussion, instead this method
> >makes it a very tideous affair for those asked for information.
>
> Actually, you did say that.  This is exactly what you said:
>
>
> "Hi Ravi and Sunny,
>
> neither me nor Francisc questioned your intentions. However, the way
> I see it, there are various ways to stifle debate on an online
> discussion group. One is to post a relentless string of old and
> utterly outdated quotes reflecting long outdated views and
outlandish
> theories and ask or even demand others to comment on them."

See, what I said is indeed different from what you claimed earlier.
All I meant is that posting a string of outdated quotes, without
backing it up with any evidence or discussion can stifle a debate.

>
> >No, long outdated and superceeded quotes from books published in
the
> >16th and 17th century are no evidence. Evidence are either original
> >historical or archeological sources, of which I have provided large
> >quantities throughout the existence of this list.
>
>
> In your opinion and my opinion it is not evidence.  In their
opinion, it is.

I doubt that they (Ravi and Sunny) regarded it as evidence either.
There are certain general rules and if everthing just depends on
personal taste these rules break down and discussion becomes
fruitless.

>
> >You should peruse the archives once in a while to get a better
> >perspective on things. I have cited all the standard works which
> >would easily have given Sunny the right answers to his comments
about
> >links between Indian Jats and Goths.
>
> I don't need to peruse the archives, I have followed this list very
closely
> for many years, and remember what I have seen.  While it is true
that in the
> past you have often cited many sources

Really? In your last message you accused me of the opposite, saying
that I don't cite evidence 'as usual'.

, recently, you have had a tendancy to
> denounce well cited arguments of others based on your word alone.

Not true, Francisc has provided the linguistic argument, I have
pointed to the literature which would have easily answered all the
questions, and indeed would have made this discussion obsolete. For
the list of supposed German Jats clan names, I agree I did not
provide evidence, but the fact that a name like Hans or Sander are in
fact not German but Hebrew and Greek I don#t need to cite sources,
this is blantly obvious.

>
> >Since, you have not made many valuable contributions to this list
as
> >long as I can remember, I find it difficult to evaluate your
method.
> >Maybe I am misjudging this list a little. I thought we were trying
to
> >stick to some sort of academic levels and standards of courtesy.
Yet,
> >you are making false wholesale accusations. This is not what a
list-
> >owner should do I think.
>
>
> Thank you for making this statement.  It just proves my point when
I said
> that you method seems to involve devaluing those who do not agree
with you.

Well you questioned the value of my contributions to this list
stating that I make accusations, provide no evidence and I took the
liberty to offer my view on the value of your contribution. Don't you
think that you have tried to devalue me?

>
> >These are very unfair accusations. In fact they are unfounded and
> >false. I will certainly withdraw from this list and you can
continue
> >debating Indian Jats and their relationship with the Goths.
>
>
> No, they are not unfair or unfounded.

Well, take the example where you claimed that I accused Ravi and
Sunny of being Nazis. It was clearly untrue and since you silently
dropped this now I assumed you have once again modified your view, as
above where you seemed to have changed the view on the amount of
evidence I provided.

Nor was I suggesting that you
> withdraw from the list.

I think it is for the better. But I like to remain a member to be
able to read the various contributions.

 All I request is that you be respectful towards the
> other list members; something which is expected from all on the
list.  Is
> that so much to ask that you would sooner leave the list?

Since I have not accused anybody of anything (in contrast to
yourself) I don't think I have treated anybody disrespectfully. All I
suggested is that the approach used by Sunny and Ravi is not helful.
Instead of quoting 17th books as evidence and seeking to derive
knowledge to challenge well establish teaching they would need to
first engage with the recent mainstream literature. To start with
they would have to show that the strong linguistic evidence provided
by Francisc is flawed.

>
> >I hope this has nothing to do with the grudge you once bore against
> >me when I dared to question the existence of elves or dwarfs or
> >something? Just kidding;-)
>
> I did not bear a grudge against you then.  At that time, as now, I
am simply
> doing my job as moderator, which is to ensure respectful and fair
treatment
> for all listmemebers, regardless of what they believe, and
regardless of
> whether I agree with them or not.  That's all.
>
> >but I clearly have a different view on
> >things and I do get frustrated with persistent claims against all
> >good evidence and knowledge. Nonetheless, if my responses were
> >somewhat harsh than only because of the introduction of what I (and
> >apparently Francisc) perceived as a 'racial superiority motive'. If
> >my harshness was unfounded  or seen as unfair I certainly
> >appologise.
>
> I understand your frustration, and commend you for the appology.

At this stage this is unfortunately more than I could say about you.

If you went back to the previous messages, you would see that at no
stage accussed Sunny or Ravi of national chauvinism or nazism. This
comment was clearly directed at a completely different text from a
different author.
Secondly, I did provide the necessary references which would easily
have refuted all and absolutely all of the outdated quotes provided
as 'evidence'. Hence, both of your accusations are wrong in my view.

Anyway, I really hope that this list will at some stage return to
some useful and fruitful discussion.

All the best
Dirk

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