[gothic-l] Boyar and related

[?????? ????????]

*<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



Hi, Gazariah!



I'm far from insisting on Germanic origin
of Russian [udel]. But your argumentation
in favor of the proper Slavic origin is
not irreproachable. Yes, the word [delit']
in Russian means "to divide" and "to share".
But the meanings for [udelit'] are rather
"to spare" or "to find (time for something)"
than "to divide" or "to share". Using
the prefix [u-] is unjustified here
unless it is, for instance, provoked by
Germanic "odal".



Your etymology of [bojarin] from Slavic [bolii]
looks interesting and maybe has the right to live,
though I did not find the stem [bolii] in any
Slavic language. Only Russian has [bol'eje] as
"greater" or "more", but this stem is not so old.
The Old Slavic for "greater" was [vent'i]
(with nasal "e"), which was transformed into
modern Czech "vice" and Polish "wiecej".
Old Russian also had "v'asij".



Regards,

Vladimir





-----Original Message-----
From: gazariah [mailto:brahmabull at hushmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:36 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Boyar and related


Greetings Francisc,

Of the Germanic etymologies for Russian words that Vladimir gives, I
would question /udel/.

This was earlier written with the vowel letter jat' /ud#l/. It
means "principality" as Vladimir says, but also "portion." (Even a
portion of barley--the use is attested.) When the feudal lord
dies, each son receives his own portion, a principality. Since we
have Slavic /d#liti/ "to divide," I see no reason for trying to make
this a Germanic borrowing. And I don't know how anyone would account
for the vowel changes needed to make Germanic /odal/ into
Slavic /ud#l/.

To insert at least some Gothic content, Slavic /d#liti/ ("divide") is
cognate with (not borrowed from) Gothic /dailjan/, German /teilen/,
English /deal/ (as in cards) and /dole/, which was Old
English /gedal/ (with long a) and meant "sharing," which bring us
back close to Russian /ud#l/.

Notice how the /ai/ in /dailjan/ (Lith. dailyti) corresponds with
jat' in /ud#l/. This is the regular development of IE diphthongs in
Slavic.

Etymologists have been worrying about /bojar/ for more than a hundred
years. The thing to keep in mind is that the oldest form we know
was /boljar-in/. A Turkic etymology is well possible, but personally
I believe this comes from Slavic /bolii/ "greater." The suffic /ar/
is very common and typical. The boljare were the "optimi viri"
(bigshots) of the state, a usage that is widespread and makes sense
anywhere.

On the other hand I don't see how /bo jarl/ would develop
to /boljar/ -- at least without using a blender. And what is /bo/ in
Norse, please? (It has to be Norse, like /jarl/, right?) I missed
that.

Regards,
Gazariah



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	

ADVERTISEMENT
 <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705297328:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30510&media=zone> click here	
  <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1732163/rand=842901045> 	

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
ReplayTV: Control live television
Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV
CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/aUMW7B/A6qGAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/