[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths not "Booted Out"

[James Young]

Wow,

Too much time on the boat.

There is a lot to think about here. Thanks to Adan, Ferdinand, and Dirk.

I've often wondered if the Visigoths have any relation to later Protestants in southern France and northern Spain (Huguenots, etc.). What about Aquataine after the Franks? Are there any Visgothic ties to Eleanor?

Jim

semiconsrback <adan-pol at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
As Ferdinand suggested in a follow up post, Dirk should do some
extensive reading of the history of Spain. One of the best known
authors is Menendez Pidal, which BTW is not one of Dirk's
professional historians on the G-List. Menendez Pidal documented
extensively the influence the goths exerted in the formation of the
spanish identity, its culture, early literature (as expressed on his
works dealing with the 'Cantar de Mio Cid'), among others. He was a
scholar of immense stature, whose views are in strong contradiction
with those expressed by Dirk on this list. References about his work
can be provided upon request.
Regards,
Adan-Pol
--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth at a...>
wrote:
> > James,
> > You seem to be somewhat confused about this period of history.
> > The Visigoths were absolutely not as you say "booted out of
Spain".
> > Neither is there evidence of any meaningful emigration outside of
> > Spain after their defeat in 711. Rather- after Guadalete, a great
> many
> > of remaining Visigoths retreated to Asturias, an area never
occupied
> > by the moors.
>
>
>
> The available sources suggest that most Visigoths, who had at any
> rate become Hispanics by that time, remained where they were after
> the defeat of Guadalete.
>
>
>
>
> It is from Asturias that an organized resistance against
> > the moors (see covadonga) began under the leadership of Pelagius,
> > attested in period documents to have been a Visigoth noble and
one
> of
> > King Roderick's bodyguards.
>
>
>
> This is mostly unattested to be honest. The battle of Covadonga was
> probably nothing more than a minor skirmish with no military
> significance. (See a lengthy discussion with involvement of a
> professional historian on the Germanic-L) Pelagius is only in
sources
> that post date the period by several centruries made into a
bodyguard
> of Roderich. Contemporary sources descibe him as minor chieftain
and
> leader of '30 wild donkeys). He may have been a chieftain of some
> mountain people in the Asturias region. In fact, the resistance
that
> grouped together in Asturias was possibly not carried by refugee
> Visigoths, but by the local Asturians who had always been
independent
> minded.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fafila, the son of Pelagius was actually
> > recognized as Rex Gothorum (King of the Goths) by the Pope after
his
> > father's death.
>
>
> Can you please provide the evidence for this.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roderick was of course the last king of the Toletan
> > Gothia.
>
>
>
> The terms Toletan Gothia is rather strange, as the Visigoths were
> keen to integrate into the Hispanic/Romanic majority population
since
> the begining of the 7th century. In fact the council documents of
the
> late Visigothic kingdom show that they dropped the name Goths
almost
> completely around the middle of the 7th century and replaced it by
> Hispanic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I might also add that some Visigoths were allowed to stay-on
> > in their lands in Castile, (North-Central Spain)and elsewhere
after
> > the moorish invasion, however, the conditions under which they
> existed
> > became increasingly intolerable and led to what is termed as the
> > "Martyr's Movement".
>
>
>
>
>
> 'Some Visigoths' is a mild understatement. Visigothic leaders even
> retained large semi-independent princedoms under the Moors like
> Theodemir/Thudmir. We know that Moorish leaders married into the
> royal Visigothic family and much of the hardship was felt by both
> Moors/Moslems conqueres and the Spanish natives, because it was due
> to a string of draughts and famines that struck Spain in the early
> 8th century. The 'Marty's Movement' is the invention of later
> revisionists, as is the story that the defeat at Guadalete was
almost
> insignificant and quickly reversed by organised resitance from
> Asturias. The fact is that the Visigothic kingdom collapsed
entirely
> after this one battle, because it had been very weak and devided
for
> many decades. Economic decline of the Visigothic kingdom started
> around the 640s AD and by the time the Moors arrived much of the
land
> was impoverished. Instead, the Moslems ruled much of Spain very
> succesfully for many centuries.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The intolerable conditions leading to the
> > Martyr's Movement caused many individuals, the majority being
> > Visigoths, to migrate northward to Asturias and Leon in northern
> > Spain. By that time a considerable amount of territory had already
> > been retaken from the moors. The latter migration is well
documented
> > in period documents once archived at the library of the monastery
of
> > Sahagun and subsequent onomastic research. (Fortunately, there is
a
> > wealth of documentation in Spain even from the time of the
> Visigoths,
> > which unfortunately has not yet been fully exploited by
> researchers).
> > A paper, based on such documents and whose findings further
support
> > the stated migration was recently published and accounts for a
> sudden
> > dearth of Gothic names in the Visigothic area under Moorish
control
> > and a subsequent flood of Gothic names in the areas under
Christian
> > control to the north in Asturias and Leon. I will present some
> > highlights of that paper at a later time.
>
>
>
>
> We are looking foreward to this. But you should note that
> Visigothic/Germanic names in the 7th and 8th centuries are no
longer
> indication of Visigothic/Germanic ethnicity. Dietrich Claude has
> shown that Visigothic/Germanic personal names were adopted by the
> local Romano-Hispanic majority population already in the 6th
century,
> while in turn Visigoths adopted Romanic names. Hence, a increase in
> Visigothic personal names in Asturias in the 8th century would only
> show that Spaniards from the south arrived there.
>
> Cheers
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > F.E.J.D.
> >
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "James Young" <daddio52 at s...>
> wrote:
> > > The Visigoths had just been booted out of Spain and the Franks
> didn't
> > > want them. Some of them probably went back to their old
homeland
> from
> > > Roman days. I wonder if they had to get permission from
> > > Constantinople? The Turks still hadn't gotten to Turkey.
> > >
> > > Kon52476



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