[gothic-l] Re: Cagots

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard at y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
> 
> Interesting reading, from which I take this excerpt, (itself being 
copied from an original french document as I understand):
> 
> "In seventeen hundred and eighteen, there was a famous cause tried 
at Biarritz relating to Cagot rights and privileges. There was a 
wealthy miller, Etienne Arnauld by name, of the race of Gotz, 
Quagotz, Bisigotz, Astragotz, or Gahetz, as his people are described 
in the legal document"




> 
> I find it very strange and interesting that in 1718 they were 
called Bisigotz / Astragotz (knowing that the letter V/W does not 
exist in Basque), when in French we have Wisigoths and Ostrogoths, in 
Spanish Visigodos and Ostrogodos... did they know anything more about 
them in the 18th century that has been lost now?







Hi Denis,

I was puzzled by this as well. I cannot believe that names like 
Visigoths and Ostrogoths were still in common use in Biaritz in the 
early 18th century. One explanation might be a learned 
reconstruction. German writers in past spoke about Heruls, Vandals 
and other occupying parts of East Germany who in reality had 
disappeared centuries earlier. 











> 
> It's also quite interesting to read their physical description by 
spanish writer Pío Baroja in 1918:
> 
> "cara ancha y juanetuda, esqueleto fuerte, pómulos salientes, 
distancia bicigomática fuerte, grandes ojos azules o verdes claros, 
algo oblicuos. Cráneo branquicefálo, tez blanca, pálida y pelo 
castaño o rubio; no se parece en nada al vasco clásico. Es un tipo 
centro-europeo o del norte. Hay viejos de Bozate que parecen retratos 
de Durero, de aire germánico. También hay otros de cara más alargada 
y morena que recuerdan al gitano"
> 
> Which in english is (my quick translation, not intended to be 100% 
academical) :
> 
> "(they have) a wide cheeky face , strong skeleton, bulging 
cheekbones, high bizygomatic distance, large blue or light green 
eyes, slightly slanted. Brachycephalic cranium, white skin, pale, 
blond or light brown hair; they do not look like typical basques at 
all. They are of central or northern european type. There are old men 
in Bozate who look like Dürer portraits, with a germanic look. There 
are also others with a longer, more brown face who remind of the 
gypsies."
> 
> Basically, if nobody knows for sure, we can discuss this "ad 
nauseam" without ever getting any smarter.





In the article that I provided, some early examinatin seem to suggest 
that they basically looked no different from anybody else (appart 
from their ears?), which makes it even more incomprehensible how they 
could have been so suppressed.









> 
> I like Fernando's approach: if scientific proof through genetic 
studies can prove or disprove the Gothic theory, something will be 
lost on the legend side, but at least knowledge will prevail.
> 




The major problem with that is that there is no Gothic gene. Names 
like Goths, Visigoths etc. were ethnic-political terms not 
biologicial/genetic terms. Hence, somebody could likely become a 
Visigoths through acculturation and assimilation and infact, the 
evidence suggests that ever since their frist appearance as refugees 
on Roman territory this was an important process by which their ranks 
swelled. In Visigothic Spain, we even hear of Thuringians, and 
Warnians from middle Germany, one of whome even became governor of 
Galicia.

The region where the later Tervingi/Vesi formed in the 3rd century 
was populated previously by various peoples like the Carpi for 
example, who were last mentioned in about 238AD together with Goths, 
but than disappear from history. Did they become physically extinct, 
or did they join the Goths? Istvan Bona has in his book on the East 
Germanic Gepids included a studys on skeletal characteristics and 
distinguished an Elbe Germanic group (Langobards) and an East 
Germanic (Gepids/Goths) group. The former were found to be of the so 
called Reihengraeber-typus, i.e. tall bodies, elongated skulls, while 
those skeletons found in an East Germanic context were shorter, 
stockier and with round skulls.  I cannot say how accurate or valid 
those studies were, but it highlights the danger of applying our 
image of Germanic physical characteristics as yard-stick in 
scientific studies. 

Cheers
Dirk









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