Thuringians = Tervingian Goths

Tue Aug 23 06:19:53 UTC 2005

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, macmaster at r... wrote:
> 
> The main questions I would have regarding this theory are:
> -- why wouldn't anyone 400-600 have called the 
Thuringians "Goths"?  They
> were allied to Theodoric's italian kingdom and generally appear as
> themselves but no mention is made of Northern Goths.  the Gothic 
name at
> this time would be far more prestigious and I would assume that it 
would
> be much vaunted.
> -- wouldn't this involve a major linguistic shift from East 
Germanic?  Is
> there any evidence of this?
> 
> Tom
> 

Hi Tom,

firstly, if Radagaisus belonged to this group (between Danube and 
Rhine), as Zosimos seem to suggest, than the name 'Goths' was 
actually applied to them, albeit briefly and by Roman sources. 
Secondly, it is important to note that the Visigoths were not called 
Visi-g o t h s, but called themselves 'Vesi' after the name Tervingi 
disappeared. The name 'Goths' was added only later by Roman authors. 
Hence, the name 'Goths' was apparently not as prestigious to them as 
some people may think today. In fact, names like Greutungi and 
Tervingi may have been much more prestiguous at the time. Given the 
political/religious conservativism of the Athanaric-Tervingi it would 
not be too surprising if this particular group continued to use this 
particular name. In fact, it seem that a reversal to the name 'Goths' 
occured only when 'Goths' settled on Roman territory and most likely 
because of outside ( i.e. Roman) use of the term and not because of 
deliberate self-naming. Thus, the Teruingi - Teuringi in middle 
Germany would have preserved what appeared to them as the more 
ancient, prestigious and certainly more conservative name.

Cheers
Dirk

> 
> faltin2001 wrote:
> >     Hello all,
> >
> >  I read the study „Stamm und Reich der frühen Thüringer nach den
> >  Schriftquellen" (i.e. Folk/tribe and realm of the early 
Thuringians
> >  according to historical sources) by Dr. Heike Grahn-Hoek,  in
> >  Zeitschrift des Vereins für Thüringische Geschichte, Vol. 56 
(2002).
> >  The study comprises 87 pages in small print. It is extremely well
> >  sourced and argued to the highest academic standards. As 
indicated by
> >  the title, the author relies exclusively on historical sources 
and in
> >  fact explicitly excludes archaeological evidence to avoid 
circular
> >  arguments. As far as I can see, her study was well received by 
other
> >  historians (e.g. H. Castritius in RGA).
> >
> >  The argument of key interest in my view centres on the origin of 
the
> >  Thuringians. The author explains that the most common theory 
suggests
> >  that the name was derived from an older tribal name Hermun-d u r 
e n.
> >  However, she adds that this explanation has always been doubted 
by
> >  linguists. Thus, the author re-examines the various name forms
> >  provided in the earliest sources. Based on Malchus a Greek 
source of
> >  the 5th cent. who provided the Greek form The-ou-r-ingoi (in 
Latin
> >  The-u-r-ingi)  she argues that this name may be derived from The-
r-u-
> >  ingi the name of the Gothic Tervingi through a simple switch of 
ou/u
> >  and r. She states that there are other examples in antique 
sources
> >  where such an `u - r switch' occurred.
> >
> >  The author states that the time frame for the emergence of
> >  Theuringoi/Thuringians and the disappearance of 
Theruingi/Tervingi
> >  around 400 AD matches perfectly. The Theuringi are first 
mentioned in
> >  400AD (Vegetius), but the source implies that at this time they 
were
> >  already very well known throughout the empire. Thus, the
> >  identification of Theuringi with Theruingi would fill a gap in 
the
> >  sources.
> >
> >  Next, the author moves to the main part of her examination, the 
study
> >  of historical sources in order to see whether a link between
> >  Theuringi/Thuringians and Theruingi/Tervingians can be 
postulated. In
> >  shortest possible terms, she takes the events surrounding 
Athanaric's
> >  Tervingi as the starting point. Faced with the Hunnic onslaught, 
in
> >  the 370s the Tervingi were beset by a crisis with a pro-Roman, 
pro-
> >  Christian faction led by Fritigern which sought settlements 
within
> >  the Roman empire and a pagan anti-Roman faction led by the 
Athanaric.
> >  Athanaric had at one stage vowed never to set food on Roman soil.
> >  Yet, for whatever reason he was later compelled to seek refuge 
with a
> >  small following in Constantinopel. His part of the Tervingi was 
taken
> >  over by `proximorum factione' (ie. relatives), who according to
> >  Marcellinus Comes sought refuge "far away in lands 
(domicilium
> >  remotum) unknown to the Huns". The author's argumentation 
here is
> >  extremely detailed and suggest that these Tervingi were located
> >  further north than often believed at that time.
> >
> >  Next, the author discusses the campaign of Radagaisus in 405/06. 
She
> >  explains that his attribution to Greutungi (Ostrogoths) or 
Tervingi
> >  (Visigoths) is uncertain. Since he is described as a pagan in
> >  contrast to the Christian Tervingi under Alaric some scholars 
argue
> >  that he must have been a Greutungian Goths. However, the sources 
call
> >  him simply a rex (basileus) Gothorum, i.e. a king of the Goths.
> >  However, Radagaisus is not listed among the ancestors of the
> >  Ostrogothic Amals. Thus, other scholars argue that Radagaisus 
was a
> >  Tervingian and possibly even the one who succeeded Athanaric. 
Thos
> >  who believe that he as a Tervingian successor of Athanaric usual
> >  place him in the so called Caucaland, i.e. the Carpathian region.
> >  Yet, most interestingly, Zosimos provides evidence for the
> >  geographical origin of Radagaisus by stating that he had come 
from
> >  the lands between Danube and Rhine. This is exactly the 
description
> >  for the geographical location of the Thuringian kingdom and it 
would
> >  make no sense if he had started out in the Carpathian mountain
> >  region.
> >
> >  The author points out that the name Radagais appears later in the
> >  Thuringian/Warnian royal family with a prince Radagis. The 
component
> >  Rada- is found in royal Thuringian names like Rade-gundis (two
> >  princesses) and a 7th century Thuringian duke/king Radaulf. The 
`–
> >  gais `component of Radagais is used again in the name of the
> >  Thuringian prince Arta-gais/Arta – chis.
> >
> >  As mentioned earlier, the author deliberately excluded 
archaeological
> >  evidence in order to avoid circular argumentation. One a 
footnote in
> >  her study refers to supportive archaeology. However, the
> >  archaeological evidence available already is in my view a key 
support
> >  for the theory that Theuringi/Thuringians are identical with
> >  Theruingi/Tervingian Goths. Berthold Schmidt has shown already 
in the
> >  1980s and 1990s that substantial groups of carriers of the
> >  Cheryhakovsk/Sintana-de-Mures culture (which is associated with 
the
> >  Goths) arrived in middle Germany and settled at the centre of the
> >  later Thuringian kingdom. These groups are known under the 
technical
> >  terms Grossbadegaster and Niemburger groups. They arrived in 
middle
> >  Germany in the 370/380s just at the time when Athanaric's 
Tervingi
> >  disappear from the sources. Following Grahn-Hoek's argument these
> >  would have been the Athanaric-Tervingi probably under the 
leadership
> >  of Radagais.
> >
> >  Overall, H. Grahn-Hoek's study is extremely well argued and 
provides
> >  a wealth of information. I think it is particularly important not
> >  only for its contribution to Thuringian history and in 
particular the
> >  ethnic/political origin of this people, but also because of the
> >  contribution to Gothic history. It now seems likely that besides 
the
> >  various creations of historically important Gothic kingdom on the
> >  territory of the Roman empire, there was also one historically
> >  important Gothic kingdom founded outside the Roman empire `

remotum
> >  ab omni notia barbarorum
' which, in line with Zosimos, was 
located
> >  between Danube and the Rhine centring on an area that carries its
> >  name to this day.
> >
> >  Cheers
> >  Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

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