MEDOS, *midus? + neologisms (was 'strava')

[ualarauans]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell at ...> wrote:
>
--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, this owes itself to Icelandic and maybe a bit to the German
> > Verdeutschung "Selbstlaut". I was in doubt if "uocalis" was 
already
> > used in the classic grammar terminology and could therefore be a
> > loan in Gothic (*wokaleis M. -ja?). And what was the Greek term I
> > wonder? How you feel about aitwmulaugia and swllabe(i)? Could a
> > secondary accent make it *aitwmulOgia (like MakidOnja, you
> > remember)? *-logja?
> 
> 
> Seems reasonable.  Makidonja could be a naturalised loan; it's 
easy to
> imagine that the name was familiar to the Goths before the bible
> translation.  I think that was Braune's suggestion.  But in Richard
> d'Alquen's theory it could have been naturalised before or after 
the
> bible translation, but kept its native form when the spelling of 
the
> other names was revised, as d'Alquen supposed, in Ostrogothic 
Italy,
> after /o/ and /u/ (and /e/ and /i/) had become phonemically 
distict,
> to bring it into line with Greek and Latin texts.
> 

Excuse my re-asking, but I didn't get it clear yet. Does d'Alquen 
(and you) suggest that Wulfila could have written e.g. 
*Barthulumius, *Pitrus, *apustulus, *diakunus etc. (cf. aggilus, not 
*aggelus, that stayed unchanged, perhaps out of folk-etymologic 
reasons)? Or maybe *Bar-thu-lo-mjus (Ma-ki-do-nja), with the primary 
accent on the first and the secondary on the third syllable, the 
latter getting prolonged? The second and the fourth were then 
unstressed and short and reduced to some extent (therefore -nja not 
*-nia?) -? Perhaps you explained that already, sorry for my obtusity.

> 
> Alternatively for
> "etymology" how about *waurde urrunseis, fi.pl., *waurdis urruns,
> fi.sg.?  Or as a compound: waurda-urruns.  I think a more literal
> calque on Greek might be something like *sunja-waurdei, but then 
the
> meaning isn't so tranparent and it perhaps carries the baggage of
> outmoded ideas about etymology demonstrating the 'true' meaning.  
For
> syllable, we could calque Icelandic 'samstafa' as Go. *sama-stabo,
> feminine on-stem.  The Icelandic term is used in the 12th c. First
> Grammatical treatise, which might be a good place to raid for 
ideas:
> 
> raddarstafr "vowel"
> hljóðstafr "vowel"
> samhljóðandi "consonant"
> samhljóð "consonant"
> 
> These would give Go. neologisms: *razdos stafs, mi; *hliuda-stafs,
> mi.; *sama-hliudands, mc.; *sama-hliuþ, na.  And they have the 
added
> advantage that if we forget what they mean we can always look them 
up
> in an Old Norse dictionary!
> 

That's a great advantage indeed!:) Otherwise it can prove that 
everybody would create a daily NGo. language of his own and, when 
we'll one day experience an International Congress of Neo-Gothic 
Enthusiasts (smile) we will not understand a word except Bible 
quotes!

Waila mis in niujawaurdjam theinaim (no politeness form -?) thaim 
afar galeikja fairnjaizos razdos Naurthamanne gaskapanam galeikaida, 
ith allaize batist in `hliudastaba' – hva ist auk bi wistai 
niba "elementum uocis" swe Rumoneis thata qetheina! Jabai 
swikunthaize waurde (jah waurte) thatainei brukjan wildedeima (sumai 
bokarje – jah Wiljahilms Streidabairgs ains ist ize - tuzwerjand 
ei `hliuth' bi sunjai in bokom anakunnaidau), niu jah *stibnastafs 
mahteigs wesi (reimand sik ba waurda swa gatemiba!)? Kantu arniba 
*hliuda- gastibnjan?

I like your ON based neologisms, especially `hliudastafs' 
for "vowel", its pattern "vocal element" being quite to the point, 
in my opinion. Sure it's hliuda- not hliutha-? To use only attested 
stems (and some doubt the reading `hliuth' you know), could it also 
be *stibnastafs (they alliterate to each other)?

> 
> > Thanks again for your mark. But warning, you've encouraged me to
> > proceed with such a practice, so you'll have to share the
> > responsibility -:) (remember the LoTR "Two Towers" movie "- Don't
> > talk to it, Merry! Don't encourage it!")
> 
> 
> Hoooom ;)
> 

Gamaudida mik thata fraihnan izwis, jau raihtaba thiudanamna 
bisitande Gutthiudos aftragasatjau: *Antjos = lateinisko Antes/Anti 
(at Iaurdanes aupuskulau) > Sini-Agglisko _ent_ "manna mikils" > 
Niuja-Agglisko _Ent_ "Ent" (allis than ni swa niuja-, unte af J.R.R. 
anaqiwith warth (?)). Jah nithjos ize (?) *Allanos = lat. Alani 
(hvaruh in meljandam jainaizos aldais). Duhve thata -l- thata 
twifaltho? Awi mis qithaith ana thammei bigat thatei sokjands was 
lagga hveila – waurdabokos razdos afarane ize thize ana Kawkasaus 
bairgahein bauandane. In spillam jah saggwim  seinaim und hina dag 
attam ize liuthond swe Allaettae (ainarathjo Allon). Thata -ll- us 
airizin –lj- jath-thata us –rj- afar garaideinim razdos ize haband. 
Insaihvaima du namin Hune thatei in Rumonim thata withrawairtho swe 
Hunni haitith.

It reminded me to ask you if the following reconstructions of the 
ethnonyms of the Goths' neighbors are correct: *Antjos M. –ja 
Pl. "Antes", "Anti" in Jordanes' Getica > OE ent "giant" > R.J.J. 
Tolkien's "Ent"? And their cognates (?) Alans - *Allanos M. –a Pl. 
(as Alani passim in Lat. sources of that age). You may wonder why I 
geminate the -l-. Congratulate me as I finally found what I was 
looking for a long time – a vocabulary of the language of the Ossets 
who descended (linguistically) from actual Alans and who now live in 
Caucasus (there is Russia's federal republic of "North Ossetia – 
Alania" (sic!) over there). So, in their legends they are said to 
mention the people of "Allaettae" (singular "Allon") as their 
forefathers, and that is commonly held to be a regular down-form of 
the name (with –ll- < -ly- < -ry-). An opposite situation is seen in 
Go. *Huneis vs. Lat. Hunni.

> 
> > Anthar waurd bi thatei bokarjos mith sis misso ni mins
> > thrasabalthaba haifstjand, hvatharaizos Hunithiudo aigin wesi, 
ist
> > MEDOS in Priskaus Istaurjai (Fr. 8, II) – bistugqun bi soknai
> > galeikai, andizuh gutiskamma (*midus) aiththau winithiskamma 
(*medu)
> > gamotidedeina. Aina gaskaidein habam af *strawai ei *midus jah in
> > razdom Gutane gakunjaim bigitada, tharei samaleiko dragk
> > wodawagjando ustaikneith. Hva ahjaith bi tho sakjon, Gamathljans
> > swerans? Jabai gutisk ist, in hvis ni swe *MIDOS gamelith warth?
> >
> > Another word that provoked a no less hot discussion among
> > specialists, to whether language – Gothic or Slavic – it could be
> > attributed, is hO MEDOS in Priscus' Historia (loc. cit.). The 
only
> > difference from *strava question is that we have this word for an
> > alcoholic beverage attested if not in Gothic then in other 
Germanic
> > languages (ON mjoedhr, OE meodu etc). Slavic has *medu (reduced -
u).
> > The phonetic difficulty here (where can we get through without 
such
> > difficulties?) is that, if being Gothic, it should have been most
> > probably written down as *MIDOS (< Go. *midus). What do you 
think?
> 
> 
> Fairweit haba hausjan hva þai in unsis slabiskans razdafrastjos bi
> þata qiþaina, iþ ni man þata unmahteig wisan, þatei in sumaize 
gutane
> razdom /i/ jah /e/ missaleikai gawesun (jah samaleiko /u/ jah /o/),
> jah afar þatei in anþaraim samaþ gadrusun.  Bair samana Gu. hilms,
> FKSlab. SlemU--jabai þata leihvawaurd us austragairmaniskon bi 
sunjai
> ist--jah managa waurda kreimagutiska: sevene, schester, regnen; 
goltz,
> boga, *schnos (schuos).
> 
> I'm be curious to hear what the Slavicists among us will have to 
say
> on this matter, but I don't think it's impossible that /i/ and /e/
> (and likewise /u/ and /o/) remained distinct in some 'Gothic' 
dialects
> after they had fallen together in others.  Compare Go. hilms, OCSl.
> SlemU "helmet"--if that is in fact a loanword from East Germanic--
also
> many words from Crimean Gothic: sevene, schester, regnen; goltz, 
boga,
> *schnos (schuos).
> 

Nunu hugjis ei thata waurd gutisk sijai? Sa sama Priskus (Fr. 8, 
III, 46.5-10) insaht gamelida, thoei wairtha rahnja ei gateihau 
izwis:
Blandiggos auk wisandans [Skwthjus] alja swesai barbariskai razdai 
aljanond andizuh tho Hune aiththau tho Gutane aiththau jah tho 
Walhe, swa managaim ize swe mith Rumonim blandains [ist?], jan-ni 
rathaba hvashun ize krekiskoth razdai niba thizei gatauhun 
frahunthana af thizai faur marein Thrakjai jah Illwridai.

Thanuh than krekisko swa sik habaith:
XYNKLYDES GAR ONTES [hOI SKYQAI] PROS TH SFETERA BARBARW GLWSSH 
ZHLOUSIN H THN OUNNWN H THN GOTQWN H KAI THN AUSONIWN, hOSOIS AUTWN 
PROS RWMAIOUS EPIMIXIA; KAI OU RADIWS TIS SFWN ELLHNIZEI TH FWNH, 
PLHN hWN APHGAGON AICMALWTWN APO THS QRAKIAS KAI ILLYRIDOS PARALOU.

So you think the word is Gothic? The same Priscus (vide supra) has 
an interesting passage which I guess might be of interest for our 
members in the context of the topic discussed. I made an attempt to 
translate it from Greek into Gothic trying to imitate Wulfilan style 
(as much as I know it of course, and that's not really much at all). 
It is followed by the Greek original so that you could compare and 
perhaps tell your opinion? I hope I transliterated it correctly, and 
best thanks to Gerhard Koebler for his Griechisch-Gotisches 
Woerterbuch. The English version (mine) is here:
Being of mixed origin (so XYNKLYDES are commented upon, Gothic has a 
neologism *blandiggos M. -a Pl. - vlrvns) [the Scythes] beside their 
own barbaric language are eager [to learn] the [language] of the 
Huns or of the Goths or of the Italics (Greek AUSONIOI, Go. 
*Walhos), those of them who are mixed (or: have dealings) with 
Romans; and nobody of them speaks Greek freely, except those whom 
they have driven captive from the coastline of Thracia and Illyris.

> 
> >
> > P.S. How you like `dragk wodawagjando' for "alcoholic beverage"
> > (Skalda-MJOEDHR, ODH-rerir). If it is too strong an expression,
> > could it be simply `dragk inwagjando (ahman)'?
> > With `gamathljans' I mean "participants of the same `mathl' 
(forum)".
> >
> > Walhahrabns gamelida
> >
> 
> 
> Good suggestions, or how about *ana-dragk, na., from the verb
> 'ana-drigkan' "get drunk".  Or maybe: dragk *ana-fahjata, cf. ON
> áfengr "intoxicating", a Gothic ja-stem adjective perhaps?  Another
> possibility *waiga, cognate with ON veig, arguably recorded in 
runes
> on the Körlin bracteate as an alternative to the usual runic 'alu'.
> If 'in-ahei' is "sobriety, presence of mind", I guess the opposite
> could be *us-ahei.  To emphasise some more specific psychoactive
> quality, we could maybe use the suffix -izl, neuter a-stem, by 
analogy
> with 'swartizl' "ink", indicating a substance that turns what it
> touches black (or just a substance that is black?).  Possibly 
varying
> the suffix according to whether the previous consonant was voiced, 
so
> for example: *gailisl', *hlasizl "euphoriant"; *wakrisl "stimulant"
> (uswaknando *lubi, wakrjando *lubi); *linþizl, *slepizl, *swibnisl
> (*swifnisl?) "narcotic"; *rimisizl 'tranquilizer'; *sibjisl, 
*feinisl
> "empathogen".  And thinking of more mundane things: 
*skaunisl "purgative"?
> 

That's ingenious. The only remark I dare is that *skaunisl seems to 
hint more to a cosmetic make-up, doesn't it?

Thanks to those few who have read this message to the end without 
falling asleep underway. Sorry, I have yet to learn to keep in 
limits.

Ualarauans






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups.  See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/