Thl- vs. Fl-, again [was Re: Poety to translate?]

[thiudans]

Koebler's Gothic Dictionary can be seen here

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/gotwbhin.html


He supports the PIE *pel- etymology. I think it was Voyles who may
have suggested PIE *tel- > Go. thliuhan. I believe he does not place
much weight on PIE in determining PGmc. forms.


- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> Hails!
>   I don�t insist on the scribal error hypothesis, but the graphical
likeness of the Gothic letter for [th] and the Greek letter for [f]
could speak in its favor. We know that some earlier manuscripts have
the S-letter close to the Greek one while the later manuscripts use
the Latin S. Could there be a similar situation with the F? I mean
some early variants of Gothic alphabet could have a Greek-like F and
later when these were being rewritten by Ostrogothic scribes in Italy
all the confusions were made. That this hypothetical proto-F would
look almost like TH is no objection � compare the letters for U and P.
Due to such a confusion of U and P by Jordanes we have Gapt instead of
*Gaut in Getica 79.
>   Then the question is why this confusion affected only initial fl- ?
>    
>   Ualarauans
> 
> 
> John Stewart <john.stewart at ...> wrote:  Hails Thiudans!
> 
> I haven't read Koebler, but this *THl- cluster has always seemed
awkward to 
> me. Does he suggest that it could be a scribal error? Where maybe
Wulfila 
> wrote the Gothic and when it was copied, someone misread it as <�>
(TH-)?
> (John S.)
> 
> > on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
> > its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
> > flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
> > take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
> > *THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
> > < ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
> > precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
> > seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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