medial b

[Fredrik]

Would you say similar rules could go for d as well?
Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it follows a 
consonant. Initally is is [d] and intervocalic like [D].
If b is [p] in albs, (becoz of ending in s?) then d in hunds should 
be [t]?
And what about g? Is it [g] initially, [G] intervocalic and [k] in 
endings before s?


Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I 
really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
It is about tones.

Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope you 
know enough swedish to understand me :)

In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which are 
pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite form 
of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).

If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms which 
one is used in gothic.
I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish, 
with the tones I mean.


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> wrote:
> >
> > In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > > the final
> > devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply 
> when 'b', 'g', 'd'
> > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
> > would be *Albs.
> > 
> > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this: 
> > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like most 
> to 
> > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We 
> have 
> > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like 
Liuva, 
> > Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you described, 
> > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS – 
> leaning 
> > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as 
> > Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two 
> > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could 
> be 
> > again a question of chronology.
> 
> The final devoicing is prevented whenever 'b', 'd', 'g' come after 
> another consonant.  Although I don't know any examples of the 
> combination 'lbs', I think it can be assumed to have existed on the 
> basis of words like 'skulds', 'gaþaurbs', 'gazds'.
> 
> According to Marchand, the Greek letter beta was a voiced bilabial 
> fricative in the 4th c.  But a voiced bilabial plosive after [m]?  
> The Gothic 'b' is modelled on this letter and used to transcribe 
> beta in names.  Go. naubaimbair for Lat. november is consistent 
with 
> the possibility that Go. 'b' was a fricative between vowels.  To be 
> more cautious, we can probably assume at least that Go. 'b' was the 
> closest thing to Lat. 'v' at the time the word was borrowed, 
> although we can't tell whether they were an exact match.  If Gothic 
> had no inervocalic [v], a bilabial fricative [B] may have been 
> substituted.  If Gothic had neither intervocalic [v] nor [B], the 
> closest match may have been a plosive, perhaps [b] or even [p] 
> (depending on how Go. /b/ and /p/ were distinguished).
> 
> Latin transcriptions of Gothic names aren't very useful for this 
> question, since medial 'b' and 'v' had fell together as a fricative 
> in Vulgar Latin.  I don't know if this was generally bilabial (as 
> still in the Iberian peninsula) or had become labio-dental (as in 
> other modern Romance languages).  Presumably Gk. SILOUANOS reflects 
> the ealier Latin pronunciation of 'v' as [w].  Either way, I think 
> unfortunately we have to discount the evidence of spellings like 
> Liuva (*Liuba), Erelieva (*Haíru-liuba?), Recciverga (?-*baírga).  
> Similarly, the contraction of Go. *Sigis- to Lat. and Romance sis- 
> can be explained in terms of Latin/Romance sound changes, cf. Lat. 
> Arge- for Go. *Harja-.  Still, it might be reasonable to exclude a 
> voiceless stop for Go. intervocalic 'g', cf. the transcription of 
> Langobardic Sikenolf.
> 
> Initial 'b' seems not to be confused, but consistently spelt 'b', 
as 
> far as I know, in Latin transcriptions of Gothic names.  This 
> suggests that initially 'b' was a stop, something like [b] in 
> Gothic.  This would agree with the treatment of Gothic initial 'g' 
> and 'd', which are transcribed as Latin 'g' or 'c', on the one 
hand, 
> and 'd' on the other.
> 
> Conclusion so far.  Comparison with other Germanic languages points 
> to a phoneme /b/ realised as a voiced bilabial fricative [B] 
between 
> vowels in Pre-Gothic, but [b] after a nasal [m].  The Latin 
evidence 
> suggests that /b/ was also realised [b] in Gothic initially.  
> Internal evidence (the regular alternation 'b' : 'f') suggests that 
> some sound change affected /b/ after other consonants which 
> prevented it in these positions from undergoing a later sound 
> change, the final devoicing of [B].  This is usually considered to 
> have been a change of Consonant + [B] > Consonant + [b].  This idea 
> has the advantage of symmetry, at least.  Alternatively it's been 
> proposed that final devoicing was prevented by some other 
mechanism, 
> e.g. the voiced quality of the preceding consonant.
> 
> Short answer.  At the moment I'd say *Albs [alps], *Alb [alb], and 
> Naubaimber ["nOBEmbEr], rabbei ["rab:i:], bindan ["bindan], bnauan 
> ["bnO:.an] or maybe ["bnO.an].  Using a full stop to represent a 
> hiatus or syllable break.  I've changed a lot of my ideas about 
> Gothic pronunciation recently after the reading I've been doing, 
and 
> am liable to change them further if I find a better explanation.
>






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