medial b

[Fredrik]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts at ...> wrote:
>
Just had some new thoughts.
Maybe intervocalic g ain't [G] but [M\] instead?

Would you pronounce these words smth like this?:

dags [daxs]
dag [dax]
daga [daGa] or [daM\a]
giba [gIBa]
bairgs [bErks]

Maybe it could work if I use a little spannish pronunciation to get 
it more right?

I have been thinking of a word for elk or moose.
If the pgmc word was *algiz then gothic would be algs [alks] right?


> Would you say similar rules could go for d as well?
> Like d in hunds doesnt become th (like hunths), becoz of it follows 
a 
> consonant. Initally is is [d] and intervocalic like [D].
> If b is [p] in albs, (becoz of ending in s?) then d in hunds should 
> be [t]?
> And what about g? Is it [g] initially, [G] intervocalic and [k] in 
> endings before s?
> 
> 
> Now when talking bout pronunciation I must ask about something I 
> really dont know anything about, and therefor not any terminology.
> It is about tones.
> 
> Coz I dont know any names for tones I try to describe it and hope 
you 
> know enough swedish to understand me :)
> 
> In swedish there are these two word "stället" and "stället" which 
are 
> pronounced almost the same. The only difference is the tones.
> Both words are singular definite forms and the first is definite 
form 
> of "ställ" ( = rack) and the second of "ställe" ( = place).
> 
> If you know the difference of the tones in these definite forms 
which 
> one is used in gothic.
> I think I pronounce gothic very much as how it would be in swedish, 
> with the tones I mean.
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> wrote:
> > >
> > > In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > > > the final
> > > devoicing rule (Auslautsverhärtung) doesn't apply 
> > when 'b', 'g', 'd'
> > > follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative 
singular
> > > would be *Albs.
> > > 
> > > Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce 
this: 
> > > [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic –b- I like 
most 
> > to 
> > > have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We 
> > have 
> > > Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like 
> Liuva, 
> > > Erelieva etc., but what about –b- in the position you 
described, 
> > > i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS – 
> > leaning 
> > > on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as 
> > > Silva... Does the rule work only when –b- stands between two 
> > > consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it 
could 
> > be 
> > > again a question of chronology.
> > 
> > The final devoicing is prevented whenever 'b', 'd', 'g' come 
after 
> > another consonant.  Although I don't know any examples of the 
> > combination 'lbs', I think it can be assumed to have existed on 
the 
> > basis of words like 'skulds', 'gaþaurbs', 'gazds'.
> > 
> > According to Marchand, the Greek letter beta was a voiced 
bilabial 
> > fricative in the 4th c.  But a voiced bilabial plosive after 
[m]?  
> > The Gothic 'b' is modelled on this letter and used to transcribe 
> > beta in names.  Go. naubaimbair for Lat. november is consistent 
> with 
> > the possibility that Go. 'b' was a fricative between vowels.  To 
be 
> > more cautious, we can probably assume at least that Go. 'b' was 
the 
> > closest thing to Lat. 'v' at the time the word was borrowed, 
> > although we can't tell whether they were an exact match.  If 
Gothic 
> > had no inervocalic [v], a bilabial fricative [B] may have been 
> > substituted.  If Gothic had neither intervocalic [v] nor [B], the 
> > closest match may have been a plosive, perhaps [b] or even [p] 
> > (depending on how Go. /b/ and /p/ were distinguished).
> > 
> > Latin transcriptions of Gothic names aren't very useful for this 
> > question, since medial 'b' and 'v' had fell together as a 
fricative 
> > in Vulgar Latin.  I don't know if this was generally bilabial (as 
> > still in the Iberian peninsula) or had become labio-dental (as in 
> > other modern Romance languages).  Presumably Gk. SILOUANOS 
reflects 
> > the ealier Latin pronunciation of 'v' as [w].  Either way, I 
think 
> > unfortunately we have to discount the evidence of spellings like 
> > Liuva (*Liuba), Erelieva (*Haíru-liuba?), Recciverga (?-
*baírga).  
> > Similarly, the contraction of Go. *Sigis- to Lat. and Romance sis-
 
> > can be explained in terms of Latin/Romance sound changes, cf. 
Lat. 
> > Arge- for Go. *Harja-.  Still, it might be reasonable to exclude 
a 
> > voiceless stop for Go. intervocalic 'g', cf. the transcription of 
> > Langobardic Sikenolf.
> > 
> > Initial 'b' seems not to be confused, but consistently spelt 'b', 
> as 
> > far as I know, in Latin transcriptions of Gothic names.  This 
> > suggests that initially 'b' was a stop, something like [b] in 
> > Gothic.  This would agree with the treatment of Gothic 
initial 'g' 
> > and 'd', which are transcribed as Latin 'g' or 'c', on the one 
> hand, 
> > and 'd' on the other.
> > 
> > Conclusion so far.  Comparison with other Germanic languages 
points 
> > to a phoneme /b/ realised as a voiced bilabial fricative [B] 
> between 
> > vowels in Pre-Gothic, but [b] after a nasal [m].  The Latin 
> evidence 
> > suggests that /b/ was also realised [b] in Gothic initially.  
> > Internal evidence (the regular alternation 'b' : 'f') suggests 
that 
> > some sound change affected /b/ after other consonants which 
> > prevented it in these positions from undergoing a later sound 
> > change, the final devoicing of [B].  This is usually considered 
to 
> > have been a change of Consonant + [B] > Consonant + [b].  This 
idea 
> > has the advantage of symmetry, at least.  Alternatively it's been 
> > proposed that final devoicing was prevented by some other 
> mechanism, 
> > e.g. the voiced quality of the preceding consonant.
> > 
> > Short answer.  At the moment I'd say *Albs [alps], *Alb [alb], 
and 
> > Naubaimber ["nOBEmbEr], rabbei ["rab:i:], bindan ["bindan], 
bnauan 
> > ["bnO:.an] or maybe ["bnO.an].  Using a full stop to represent a 
> > hiatus or syllable break.  I've changed a lot of my ideas about 
> > Gothic pronunciation recently after the reading I've been doing, 
> and 
> > am liable to change them further if I find a better explanation.
> >
>







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/