Visigothic identity of Spain

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at ...> 
wrote:
>
>  Hi Tom!
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> > Actually, the Arian creed saw Jesus as a human and a Prophet, 
born
> of the
> > Virgin Mary and ascended into heaven after the resurection rather
> than as
> > a part of the Godhead; the view of Jesus in Islam is almost 
identical
> > (some scholars think Muhammad may have been influenced by Arian-
like
> > Christians in Arabia)
> >
> > Tom MacMaster
> 
> I totally agree with you about the Arian original thinking. This 
is in
> the time of Arius and soon afterwards, but still this is the basic
> concept. The compromises in Nicea and Constantinople however 
explained
> that Christ was the first created entity and had existed before
> makind. Still he was regarded however as different from the Father.
> Since we now call him Christ and not Jesus there lies the 
implication
> that he was rather an incarnation of God  instead of actually
> resurrected/reborn and so he returns to the basic condition as 
divined
> righteous prophet. This does indeed lie close to Islam, and an 
Arian
> might quite easily convert during such circumstances as in Spain. 
The
> fact that Reccared and some leading nobles accepted Catholicism 
from
> 586 gradually and that the Catholic Toledo councils were raving 
lakeys
> of the pope in persecution of Jews, 





Hi Ingemar,

you should know that already the Arian Visigoths had percecuted the 
Jews and you should also know that Visigothic Spain had almost no 
contact with the pope in Rome. There is a very good book on the 
Visigothic church, which I have recommended to you earlier. The 
author shows nicely that the contact between Rome and Toledo was so 
spuradic that sometimes 10 to 20 years could pass without any letter 
or any other communication exchanged betweeen the two. 

I know you like to present the Goths in general as the good guys of 
history, the righteous warriors of justice, tolerance and moral 
superiority. Such a presentations streches like a red line through 
everything you right about the Goths. Yet, this is just not the 
right way to go about it. The Visigoths fled to Spain for good after 
their terrible defeat by the Franks in 507, when many of them were 
killed. The remnants created a feeble state, that was ruled by weak 
and often cruel kings who ordered the percecution of other 
minorities like the Jews. Only under Reccared did the state gain in 
stability and some power, culminating in the driving out of the last 
Byzantine bastions on Spanish soil in the early 7th century under 
Sisebut and Swinthila. 

>From the mid 7th century economic crises greately eroded the state 
power. The various very cruel Visigothic king conduct regular 
purches of the Visigothic nobility in which many are killed, often 
with their entire families or flee to the Frankish kingdom. Towards 
the end of the century, instability and paranoia are once again rife 
in Visigothic Spain leading members of the royal clan to seek 
alliances with the Moors in Africa, who finally cross over to 
conquer a state that collapses at a blink of an eye.




Cheers,
Dirk




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